Will you quit if this game becomes raid-centric?

[Synfrag]

Isn't grinding NM's the same deal? ... just without cutscenes and such? I guess they change locations on occasion. Locations that you've probably seen as often as the raid dungeons.

Am I not understanding this argument?

Not really, as was mentioned before there is the competitiveness that you don't get in a dungeon. It's a lot like PvP in a sense where your heart starts racing in anticipation of the pop and beating everyone to the claim. This is a more vital element than most people assume. Sure a lot of people don't like it and my money is on the fact that those are also the people who do not enjoy PvP combat because they are not very successful in it. For those that often win a claim or win a PvP fight there is nothing better imo than that rush.

Lets face it anything you do in repetition gets boring, but, beating other people never does because it's rarely the same thing twice. This is in large part why multi-player FPS games are the most successful genre in video games. Making the same pull on the same boss 20 times doesn't get any better or any different even if it's challenging.

Personally I would rather get that adrenaline rush from PvP and my gear from a mix of things like Instanced fights, raids and open world NMs. In the end, I want the exhilaration that I have felt only in FFXI's NM and Mission systems and Aion's PvP system. Looking at those three things their is one commonality and that is consequences for failure. With NMs it's time wasted and jealousy of the winner. For missions it was simply the time and ramifications of usually having to start over another day with a different setup. For Aion's PvP it was the loss/gain of the then oh-so-valuable AP points. FFXI & WoW PvP are a joke (So is Aion's now). If all I lose is the durability on my equipment when I die that's not much consequence and therefore lends to sloppy play style.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed but Yoshida keeps mentioning PvP which makes me happy in my pants.

sorry for the tl;drs

[Haji]

It's a lot like PvP in a sense where your heart starts racing in anticipation of the pop and beating everyone to the claim. This is a more vital element than most people assume. Sure a lot of people don't like it and my money is on the fact that those are also the people who do not enjoy PvP combat because they are not very successful in it. For those that often win a claim or win a PvP fight there is nothing better imo than that rush.

If so, then I belive it would be best to take page from WoW and make separate serveres for instanced mobs (for those who hate this kind of so-called competition, like yours truly) and servers for completely open mobs, where people like you can get your rush. This way everyone would be happy... unless there would be very few people on some kind of servers.

no,
Normal NMs that are time-oriented or random pop from mobs give players something to do that -takes time-
It also gives a sense of achievement when you kill and claim it.
This gives players a lot more to do in game.

Sorry, but I never could quite understand that kind of argument. About this being an achivment I mean. Claiming a monster does not make you good player; it makes you a player with much time to burn (which is not nessecerly a bad thing, in MMO especially) and a lucky one. Of course, I always avoided games like that like a plague, so maybe I'm just missing something.

[Azurymber]

If so, then I belive it would be best to take page from WoW and make separate serveres for instanced mobs (for those who hate this kind of so-called competition, like yours truly) and servers for completely open mobs, where people like you can get your rush. This way everyone would be happy... unless there would be very few people on some kind of servers.



Sorry, but I never could quite understand that kind of argument. About this being an achivment I mean. Claiming a monster does not make you good player; it makes you a player with much time to burn (which is not nessecerly a bad thing, in MMO especially) and a lucky one. Of course, I always avoided games like that like a plague, so maybe I'm just missing something.

its based on competitive psychology. Winning rock paper scissors doesn't take skill or anything, but when someone wins their brain still generates pleasure from it just for winning.

edit: the part of our brain that controls that is kind of old and comes from the evolutionary process. Animals that could compete best mated the most and produced the most offspring. So being better than others would continue your gene pool and as such our brains developed to gain pleasure from being better + having more than others. I mean thats a realllllly simplistic explanation of it. But thats essentially why we enjoy competition like sports and stuff so much. And why we like to "win" or like to have more money than the others around us.

[Haji]

its based on competitive psychology. Winning rock paper scissors doesn't take skill or anything, but when someone wins their brain still generates pleasure from it just for winning.

That's an explanation why ones enjoy it (when one wins at least), not why this is an achivment. Personally I'd prefer challanges when I can use my skill rather than time and luck. For example, in the case of instanced bosses there is always a way to show off "hey, look, I'm great, I beat the boss first, barely week after it come out" without denying others the chance to enjoy content as well.

I guess my main problem is that sitting 3 hours doing nothing is not my idea of cooperation. And with a NM that only one person (grouo) can claim, I would be effectively denied part of the game's content (game I paid for and, once it's p2p, would pay monthly) becouse I would never have patiance for something like that.

[Azurymber]

That's an explanation why ones enjoy it (when one wins at least), not why this is an achivment. Personally I'd prefer challanges when I can use my skill rather than time and luck. For example, in the case of instanced bosses there is always a way to show off "hey, look, I'm great, I beat the boss first, barely week after it come out" without denying others the chance to enjoy content as well.

I guess my main problem is that sitting 3 hours doing nothing is not my idea of cooperation. And with a NM that only one person (grouo) can claim, I would be effectively denied part of the game's content (game I paid for and, once it's p2p, would pay monthly) becouse I would never have patiance for something like that.

winning over someone else no matter how mundane the task will feel like an achievement and be considered by others to be an achievement IN GENERAL. In general means it applies to the average population and not every individual. however, its likely if you actually claimed leaping lizzy or valk emperor in ffxi you would have felt like it was an achievement.

[Synfrag]

That's an explanation why ones enjoy it (when one wins at least), not why this is an achivment. Personally I'd prefer challanges when I can use my skill rather than time and luck. For example, in the case of instanced bosses there is always a way to show off "hey, look, I'm great, I beat the boss first, barely week after it come out" without denying others the chance to enjoy content as well.

I guess my main problem is that sitting 3 hours doing nothing is not my idea of cooperation. And with a NM that only one person (grouo) can claim, I would be effectively denied part of the game's content (game I paid for and, once it's p2p, would pay monthly) becouse I would never have patiance for something like that.

That is your perogative and I agree that there should be content everyone can enjoy. I also agree that it is not an "Achievement" or at least shouldn't be in anyone's eyes but your own. You shouldn't have to sit and wait for a spawn to get a piece of equipment that you NEED. But I should have the option to get a +1 version or a slightly better version if I want to invest the time right? Or should the additional time I can play be punished by the fact that I can do nothing more than any other player?

[Synfrag]

If so, then I belive it would be best to take page from WoW and make separate serveres for instanced mobs (for those who hate this kind of so-called competition, like yours truly) and servers for completely open mobs, where people like you can get your rush. This way everyone would be happy... unless there would be very few people on some kind of servers.

Sure! I'd be ok with that if the "Instanced" mob drops a lesser version of an item. The reason things in this world hold value is because of the efforts needed to obtain them. Should a lazy person get a Lotus because it takes the same effort as a Honda? Then what is the value of a Lotus over a Honda? Before this is met with "It's a game not a job" it's a metaphor. I personally don't want to run the same instance as everyone else to get the same item when I could potentially do something more time consuming or difficult for something better because I am willing to put in that effort. It's all about balance for casual and hard core. Should putting in more effort yield better rewards? Absofreakinlutely it's the nature of everything.

Sorry, but I never could quite understand that kind of argument. About this being an achivment I mean. Claiming a monster does not make you good player; it makes you a player with much time to burn (which is not nessecerly a bad thing, in MMO especially) and a lucky one. Of course, I always avoided games like that like a plague, so maybe I'm just missing something.

Yes you are missing something. And yes it quite often does make you a better player. Outsmarting and having better reaction time often means you perform better under pressure and in challenging situations. Not to mention the ability to potentially solo something too hard for your average player. Honestly and I am NOT taking a shot at you, usually players who do not like this are not good at it. I say this being one of those people in the past. As I got better it became more fun (and more rewarding) to play knowing that I at least had a chance.

[Haji]

Sure! I'd be ok with that if the "Instanced" mob drops a lesser version of an item. The reason things in this world hold value is because of the efforts needed to obtain them.

My idea was somewhat diffrent: do completely separate servers, like in WoW, where on one type of server there is nearly no open-world pvp, and the other, where pvp is always on. What you propose is to have 2 diffrent type of monsters, one "bigger" one "lesser" on the same server.

The reason for 2 diffrent servers is that there are 2 diffrent kinds of people. You probably would call them "hardcore" and "casual" I call them "competitive" and "cooperative". For me, it seems that people like you, priamrly want to compete, not in direct pvp, but in a kind of race. Ok, I think I can understand that. The problem is, that by doing so, you effectively deny usage of the NMs to people like me. People who just want to get a group and go do something, sometimes challanging, sometimes silly, whithout having to worry about others stealing their fun. On the other hand this is MMO, and, like all, we would like to have a clear shot at best gear.

I'll give here example from WoW. I was never in a hardcore guild (one could argue I wasn't good enough, for me it was just unwillingness to sink that much time), so I never really did the highest content and was kinda lagging behind others. On the other hand the ability to go and try any time I wanted was very important to me. There was a time, when I couldn't really get to the Lich King, but every week I tried and I had a load of fun, especially when 25 people where cooperating. In the kind of game where only one group can claim a monster I would be left with nothing to do, and would ultimately leave the game.

[Synfrag]

My idea was somewhat diffrent: do completely separate servers, like in WoW, where on one type of server there is nearly no open-world pvp, and the other, where pvp is always on. What you propose is to have 2 diffrent type of monsters, one "bigger" one "lesser" on the same server.

Well I was thinking more one instanced and the other not but you are on the same line. I do like the idea of PvP and PvE servers but not "Instanced" servers and non. Besides it wouldn't work if transfers were allowed which is pretty crucial to an MMO.

I was just talked into joining WoW with some coworkers as FFXIV continues to evolve. I can honestly say, the only thing I like about it at all is Battlegrounds and even those are getting boring. Granted I have only made it to 55 in the week that I have been on so I don't know how endgame raiding is but I hear stories from my friends and it sounds pretty scattered in contrast to FFXI's endgame. What I mean by this is that just about any group setup with a tank and a healer can down most bosses.

WoW caters to people too much. Warping from one thing to the next and playing with people from entirely different servers destroys any and all sense of community or cooperation. The only challenges in the game now are the instances themselves as you no longer have to navigate the world. It's really sad actually.

In the one week of playing WoW I am usually at the top of the honor chart in a battleground and I'm not used to hotbar style mmos. I failed at PvP in Aion a lot of the time and wasn't some crazy HNM person in XI. I say this only to point out how diluted WoW is and how little people work to learn their class. Everything is pretty much a smash and grab. It would be a travesty to see FFXIV evolve this way. Lucky for us it's not possible to fully learn you role because SE hasn't fully learned it either lol

Edit: In summary as long as the content is challenging and people have to learn their places, use a strategy. As long as instances are unique, rewarding and challenging I have no problem with the majority of content dropping in them. If I start seeing people running every instance with a "LFG Anything 1/4 or 1/8" you can count me out.

[Haji]

Well I was thinking more one instanced and the other not but you are on the same line. I do like the idea of PvP and PvE servers but not "Instanced" servers and non. Besides it wouldn't work if transfers were allowed which is pretty crucial to an MMO.

I was thinking here about allowing people to change the realm once such a system would be up, so they can decide (once) where they want to be. I will admit however that I don't know how transfers work in FFXIV, it was a matter of no importance for me. I only know about WoW, and there you have to pay (more or less equal to monthly fee) to change the server. If you can freely hop between servers, then you're right it would not work.

As for WoW. I don't nessecerly advocate having easy bosses for FFXIV (althought it's open to discussion how easy or difficult they are in WoW). What I'm advocating is the ability for everyone to try (and yes, fail, myltiple times if need be) whenever they choose, whitout the need to compete with others.

As a side note, WoW is not what it used to be. I remember watching first onyxia kill video, when on the start the creator said that his guild (40 people) spent whole 3 days trying to bring her down. Those were the days...

Edit:

What I mean by this is that just about any group setup with a tank and a healer can down most bosses.

This can be viewed in one of 2 ways: that the game is easy or that it is well balanced. Personally, if a game was made that of 10 classes only 4 are actaully usefull, while the rest are there just to be and take place, it would seem to me that the game is inbalanced.