The Ethics of Optional Item Sales

[DreadRabbit]

I don't usually play f2p games (GW2 excluding), but I have played few games with the model I described, and RMT simply cannot compete against the user created economy of gold<->$ trading.. They simply cannot sustain it and RMT is almost non-existent in these games.

Specifically, I'm talking about Guild Wars 2 and Wildstar. Neither of those games had heavy RMT presence when I was playing it, it did have quite a bit of advertisement for powerleveling, but that was upon release, I assume the popularity for such services have dwindled by now.

You also forget that both of those games pay far more attention to handling RMT than the NA servers of this game. There's chat filters and a much easier to use report system so that RMT bots can be found and deleted sooner. Not to mention there's harsher consequences for purchasing in game money through RMT in those games.

Also, this:

I don't have a problem with past event items being in the shop.

Items, even vanity items, created for the sole purpose of being exclusively on the shop can open the floodgates to a plethora of problems though. I can name plenty of MMOs that had cool in game obtainable vanity items, then cash shop ones were introduced, followed by the future in game ones being made at a much slower rate and at a much lower level of quality compared to cash shop ones.

What this quote says happens to every single game that starts embellishing the cash shop, both P2P and F2P. This is why I have no problems with there being vanity in our cash shop so long as it was past event-only items. Once you start designing items specifically for a cash shop it begins to snowball and an additional paywall to the subscription fee rises.

Cash shop items being tradeable has merits, yes. In theory this makes it so that players who can't spend more money on this game, but want said items can just buy them off another player. That is nice. But: this can drive players who have neither the time to make money in game and can't spend money revert to RMT more than before if the RMT shop's prices for in game currency are a bargain to what players are selling cash shop items for. Which RMT pays attention to and does. This does eventually cause massive inflation of certain types of items across the board and QoL of players goes down because they can't afford anything as easily as they once could.

It's a slow change, yes. But it does happen.

[GenJoe]

You also forget that both of those games pay far more attention to handling RMT than the NA servers of this game. There's chat filters and a much easier to use report system so that RMT bots can be found and deleted sooner. Not to mention there's harsher consequences for purchasing in game money through RMT in those games.

Well when game-time items are up for sale and traded for game-money. That's one commodity that every player needs, and not just for vanity purposes. So there's almost endless demand for it as long as people are playing.. So that dramatically decreases the need for RMT sites as the middle man.

[DreadRabbit]

Well when game-time items are up for sale and traded for game-money. That's one commodity that every player needs, and not just for vanity purposes. So there's almost endless demand for it as long as people are playing.. So that dramatically decreases the need for RMT sites as the middle man.

I'm not even going to try and work with this logic. You're assuming that players will be fair with their pricing on premium items. Unless SE does what WoW does and sets a definite gil price on [insert premium item here], that will not ever happen. Period. People can claim they want to help other players all they want. What they're really saying is "let me legally pay $10 and suddenly have 10 million gil in my pocket." Just be honest and admit it already.

My stance still stands. Cash shop should be system-side services (transfers, name change, etc.), fantasia, and un-tradeable vanity items. SE's cash shop is fine as it is.

[GenJoe]

I'm not even going to try and work with this logic. You're assuming that players will be fair with their pricing on premium items. Unless SE does what WoW does and sets a definite gil price on [insert premium item here], that will not ever happen. Period. People can claim they want to help other players all they want. What they're really saying is "let me legally pay $10 and suddenly have 10 million gil in my pocket." Just be honest and admit it already.

My stance still stands. Cash shop should be system-side services (transfers, name change, etc.), fantasia, and un-tradeable vanity items. SE's cash shop is fine as it is.

Players don't HAVE to sell it at a "fair" price.
RMTs sell gil at about $3/million.

That is 5 million gil for $15. $15 being a month's sub.

You don't think there will be enough people to buy a month's sub for 5 million gil? People will likely pay 10-20 million + for a month's sub.. So RMTs will either have to reduce their gil pricing to be competitive, or quit. RMTs simply cannot be competitive with player run economy because most people perceive RMT prices to be exorbitant.. When players trade game-time for gil, prices of gil will drop beyond the point of profitability for most people, especially a company with the overhead.

"let me legally pay $10 and suddenly have 10 million gil in my pocket." Just be honest and admit it already.

I admit that, I see absolutely no problem with it if it's taking place within the economy and providing flow of gil.
How's buying gil from another player any worse than buying gil from RMT? At least if SE condoned the player based RMT economy, prices will not be exorbitant and gil WILL trade places more freely. I would LOVE to be able to use some of my gil.. except there's nothing I can buy with it. If they introduced a month's sub as an in-game item I'd gladly pay 30 million gil for a month's worth.

[DreadRabbit]

You don't think there will be enough people to buy a month's sub for 5 million gil? People will likely pay 10-20 million + for a month's sub.. So RMTs will either have to reduce their gil pricing to be competitive, or quit. RMTs simply cannot be competitive with player run economy because most people perceive RMT prices to be exorbitant.. When players trade game-time for gil, prices of gil will drop beyond the point of profitability for most people, especially a company with the overhead.

I'm going to stop here and say this is where we agree to disagree. What you sell from the cash shop doesn't matter. F2P games allow this and have no subscription fee pay walls. They allow almost their entire premium item inventory to be traded/sold within the player base. Guess what? RMT bots still exist in those games too. Some they're quite rampant actually. So this entire argument I've seen lately that Plex/game time player trading reduces/chases away RMT is utter bologna. Again, you just want to pay $10 to get instant gil and not potentially be banned for it. I'm not saying it's wrong to want that, but that has never been nor will it ever be positive growth in a multiplayer game.

Did the cash-shop item trade in other games. Seen multiple times the long term effects of it. Many things changed. RMT was not one of those.