"I Was Out of That!" (Some Life Lessons)

[Anna_Lannis]

I never said it is, all I meant is that it is my personal opinion that as gamers who play with and rely on other gamers we should ensure that our tools can do the job we need them to. People randomly screwing up mechanics isn't a problem, that's just how the game works and I'm fine with that as long as everyone tries to learn from it. When it becomes clear that one person's client is, as I said, a full second or more behind the server though, that is a problem that I do think that player should take responsibility for.

The problem with Titan EX is that no one know if they are going to lag until they actually go into the fight. You can stack and move with everyone else, and still get hit even if your on the edge of the arena.

"But one person shouldn't hold down the group!" It's NEVER, just one person. Competent player A goes into Titan EX, and clear it after on hour of attempts. Then Competent Player A wants to farm, so he get joins Competent Player B, and he joined by Noob A who is on a DPS job, and Noob B who is on a tank job. Everything goes fine until phase 2 and its time to stack and move with everyone else and gets plumed. Next attempt. Noob A get hit with a landslide, but Noob is a DPS and no one cares about DPS because they are a dime a dozen, and DPS aren't important (no this is not my attitude, this is general MMO attitude), and Landslide doesn't require a stack. Next attempt Competent player B gets a phone call in the middle of the fight because RL happens. Next attempt, Competent Player A is goaled and isn't broken out in time, and gets Granite Sepulchered, gets raised, and had to make a choice to heal the tank that got Mountain Bustered NAO, or a dodge a plume. Either way Competent Player A takes blame. Competent Player B ragequits, takes 5 minutes to replace. Next up Competent Player A gets broken out of a goal too early, and is landslided. New person goes on rant about how much Competent Player A sucks. A few wipes later, Noob B doesn't get the adds and people start taking more damage then they are supposed to, and Competent Player A can't heal because he spent the last of his MP raising two people. Noob B doesn't get kicked, because Noob B is a tank and tanks are rare, and Noob A says nothing is his fault because the parser says he's top deeps, never mind that he broke you out of a goal 3 times. As time goes on people get more and more frustrated, and start blaming each other, causing performance to suffer, and then group disbands. Now Noob A and Noob B get their clique together and spreads things about Competent Player A, and now Competent player A's reputation is shot even though he lagged maybe twice in the 20 something wipes.

This problem is more complex then just the internet. This fight brings the worst out in people because their is dissonance between being out of an AoE in other areas and this one.

[XiXiQ]

I guess I'm just very tired of having my own experience ruined by other people's technical issues.

What you're ACTUALLY tired of is SE's crap programming that gives no regard to the fact that some people are further away from the server than you are. Try blaming the actual cause, rather than the people who have to put up with it day in and day out.

[seekified]

You guys are taking this way too specifically. xD I have a very general point about bad client-side connections and gaming, that's all. Not particular fights, not even particular games - the Titan remark was just an example on the result that such problems can bring. And yeah, the netcode in FFXIV and the placement of the servers on the wrong continent for some of us, that aggravates the problem in our case, but still.

[randysquirrel]

1. People who are just bad, but lie and use lag as an excuse 10%
2. People who don't react quickly enough, and think it must be lag when it isn't 80%
3. People who genuinely have lag 10%

Yeah numbers out my ass. While there are some that actually do have lag, they are vastly outnumbered by those that are just slow, and so as soon as anyone says "I was out of that!" I usually just assume they probably weren't. Probably not right, but just being honest, this is what I do. Sorry genuine people, too many slow people use this tired old excuse

[Gardes]

What you're ACTUALLY tired of is SE's crap programming that gives no regard to the fact that some people are further away from the server than you are. Try blaming the actual cause, rather than the people who have to put up with it day in and day out.

Titan ex, levi ex, or any other 'die when you're out of bound' fights including t5/9/13 can be beaten with 300 ping (while also not being a dead weight). I've probably played in a worse place than you considering I had the great firewall of china to deal with. My ping couldnt go any lower than 280 but on stable days, I expect myself to be able to tackle those fights without struggle. You should be able to too. If dodging those mechanics are actually RNG on a regular basis, it's your ISP, not SE.

[JonBigwood]

TLDR

- Don't make excuses (no one cares why you cannot execute)
- How people feel about you is proportional to the value you provide them
- What we lack in natural ability can be compensated for with practice and hard work
- You can't control what others do. It is wrong to ask "Why do these things happen to me?" Instead ask: "What can I do right now to make this situation better?"
- Don't be afraid to step outside of your comfort zone once in a while

I mostly agree. When people say "I was out" it's not they think there was an error on the server and they really were out, just that they thought they were out. People who arrive to Titan EX know they have to be out of the AoE way before the animation comes, if not they will be killed. Sometimes you get killed the equivalent of 5 meters out of the place.

Things happen at different moments in you PC and the server. I usually arrive first to a door and when I open it, the guy that arrived clearly later had already opened it and my action is interrupted. In divebombs in T5 if you go at the same time than everybody, you are going late, you have to be a bit ahead of the group in your PC.

So I don't think when people say "I was out" they are making an excuse, just saying out loud their feelings (knowing that what they see is not what really happens in the server.)

I agree this game is multi player so if you are joining a party you should be as prepared as possible. Seeing a video or reading a guide helps just a bit to know what things look like and sort of what is going to happen, not much more in a difficult fight. But it's better than nothing.

In Europe/North American servers people usually go to Duty Finder to practice and later to Party Finder, unlike Japan where people (I read) usually practice in Party Finder and only join Duty Finder when they have exp. So if you join Duty Finder in Titan EX you know you most likely won't get a kill because probably there are some people with not enough experience there and it's a place where you have to wipe a lot of times until you can expect to win. All players being overgeared helps, but is not enough. Knowing that, I don't understand people that get desperate and quit quickly when they think that group won't kill in time. Even in helping progress groups with friends and FC members people lose patience too quickly.

Other question is most times when a group fails it's not just one person's fault. (Titan EX or T5 type of places may be exceptions since one person's fail may easily wipe the group.) The problem is when you try to see the reasons of the fail people may start to get defensive and the blame game may start, which does not help. Who was to blame is not important, what to do to improve is. And it is not always easy, sometimes there's not enough time. That's why static groups go advancing bit by bit until they, after many tries playing together, succeed.

[Purrfectstorm]

"No one knows they are going to lag until they go into the fight." Maybe so but you surely know you're lagging by the 10th time you can't get out of something. At some point you should stop holding others back because of your problems.

"You just want your DF experience to be better." No. I was trying to help YOUR DF experience be better. People won't carry you through difficult fights but some may be hostile towards you. As I said in my original post, personal accountability helps earn the goodwill of other players. Sometimes this personal accountability means admitting you made a mistake instead of blaming lag or leaving the instance if you truly are lagging.

"You're being elitist." LOL I'm about as casual as they come. I still haven't beaten T9 and I'm far more into collecting ponies and racing my chocobo than I am in getting through Final Coil. I wrote this thread because I was personally horrible at this game when I started and I almost gave up. Players were mean to me and I was always left out of content. But I got better and it was from adopting a different mindset. Players are hardly ever mean to me now. While I don't think players should be mean to anyone, it will happen to you far more if you are holding others back for whatever reason (lag, skill, etc.) When you take steps to become a better player, the community magically seems less toxic and the game becomes more fun to play.

"This attitude is hostile to new players." No. I don't think that helping players adopt a more positive mindset is hostile to any player, new or old.

"Watching a video first is unreasonable." In David Sirlin's Playing to Win, he talks about the "rules of a scrub." These rules include making up rules beyond the actual rules of the game. For example, "I won't watch a video for <insert reason here>" Videos are helpful tools. People who do the content the first time won't have access to them. So what? By the time most people do content those videos exist. Was it possible to beat the content without videos? Sure. Is it possible to beat the content now without videos? Certainly. Do strategies change after videos are made and will new players still make mistakes? Yes and yes.

However, do videos at least give people an idea how to perform mechanics and make the jobs of other players easier (less explaining, less wiping to some mechanics)? Absolutely! So you are refusing to use a tool at your disposal because of laziness, some strange code, or stubbornness. To me the only legitimate reasons for not watching a video first are: you can't (no access to youtube for some reason) or you relish the surprises. Except in the latter case, it's not really a surprise when players who've done the fight before tell you what the mechanics are. I probably won't convince anyone on this but it basically sums up how I feel about players not watching videos.

"Wiping is never one person's fault." Well I don't agree with this. A tank could turn a mountain buster into the whole party or DPS could break someone out of a gaol into a landslide. Being down a healer from the get go can be significant pressure on the remaining healer. Besides, even if failures involve multiple people, do you really want to be one of them? The fact that you don't feel motivated to do the right thing (improve) because others will also fail to is called "diffusion of responsibility." Maybe someone else is screwing up but that one screw up you DON'T make because you bothered to improve might actually save the day. How many fights are lost at 1% where a person not dying or DPS having done perfect rotations might have saved the day? I use HQ X-Potions of Strength sometimes in these tight circumstances. I also use food if I am looking to gain an edge. You can't say little things don't matter (insta-dying on WotL or Landslide is NOT a little thing); ANYTHING could matter.

"Lag is not an excuse." Literally the definition of an excuse is just a reason to justify something, whether the reason is the truth or not. If I'm sick and don't go into work, my being sick is an excuse. It may be a good excuse but it's still an excuse. I'm sorry that some players don't like this language as they think I'm implying that I believe they're lying. This is not the case. I don't CARE whether players are lying or telling the truth about lag. Does lag help the group win? No. Does telling us all you're lagging help the group win? No. Okay well maybe because we can just kick you and replace you with someone who won't lag.

[Lilyarel]

Lag does randomly happen though. You cant anticipate it.
I was doing a Levi Ex run with my friends and I suddenly started lagging something fierce. I had to reset my modem and route to fix the issue. As they say; **** happens.

[Kallera]

Purrfectstorm, just stop. People have already taken what you meant and will eventually piss off players on both ends accordingly.

[Richiealvian]

"No one knows they are going to lag until they go into the fight." Maybe so but you surely know you're lagging by the 10th time you can't get out of something. At some point you should stop holding others back because of your problems.

"You just want your DF experience to be better." No. I was trying to help YOUR DF experience be better. People won't carry you through difficult fights but some may be hostile towards you. As I said in my original post, personal accountability helps earn the goodwill of other players. Sometimes this personal accountability means admitting you made a mistake instead of blaming lag or leaving the instance if you truly are lagging.

"You're being elitist." LOL I'm about as casual as they come. I still haven't beaten T9 and I'm far more into collecting ponies and racing my chocobo than I am in getting through Final Coil. I wrote this thread because I was personally horrible at this game when I started and I almost gave up. Players were mean to me and I was always left out of content. But I got better and it was from adopting a different mindset. Players are hardly ever mean to me now. While I don't think players should be mean to anyone, it will happen to you far more if you are holding others back for whatever reason (lag, skill, etc.) When you take steps to become a better player, the community magically seems less toxic and the game becomes more fun to play.

"This attitude is hostile to new players." No. I don't think that helping players adopt a more positive mindset is hostile to any player, new or old.

"Watching a video first is unreasonable." In David Sirlin's Playing to Win, he talks about the "rules of a scrub." These rules include making up rules beyond the actual rules of the game. For example, "I won't watch a video for <insert reason here>" Videos are helpful tools. People who do the content the first time won't have access to them. So what? By the time most people do content those videos exist. Was it possible to beat the content without videos? Sure. Is it possible to beat the content now without videos? Certainly. Do strategies change after videos are made and will new players still make mistakes? Yes and yes.

However, do videos at least give people an idea how to perform mechanics and make the jobs of other players easier (less explaining, less wiping to some mechanics)? Absolutely! So you are refusing to use a tool at your disposal because of laziness, some strange code, or stubbornness. To me the only legitimate reasons for not watching a video first are: you can't (no access to youtube for some reason) or you relish the surprises. Except in the latter case, it's not really a surprise when players who've done the fight before tell you what the mechanics are. I probably won't convince anyone on this but it basically sums up how I feel about players not watching videos.

"Wiping is never one person's fault." Well I don't agree with this. A tank could turn a mountain buster into the whole party or DPS could break someone out of a gaol into a landslide. Being down a healer from the get go can be significant pressure on the remaining healer. Besides, even if failures involve multiple people, do you really want to be one of them? The fact that you don't feel motivated to do the right thing (improve) because others will also fail to is called "diffusion of responsibility." Maybe someone else is screwing up but that one screw up you DON'T make because you bothered to improve might actually save the day. How many fights are lost at 1% where a person not dying or DPS having done perfect rotations might have saved the day? I use HQ X-Potions of Strength sometimes in these tight circumstances. I also use food if I am looking to gain an edge. You can't say little things don't matter (insta-dying on WotL or Landslide is NOT a little thing); ANYTHING could matter.

"Lag is not an excuse." Literally the definition of an excuse is just a reason to justify something, whether the reason is the truth or not. If I'm sick and don't go into work, my being sick is an excuse. It may be a good excuse but it's still an excuse. I'm sorry that some players don't like this language as they think I'm implying that I believe they're lying. This is not the case. I don't CARE whether players are lying or telling the truth about lag. Does lag help the group win? No. Does telling us all you're lagging help the group win? No. Okay well maybe because we can just kick you and replace you with someone who won't lag.

I don't usually agree with the mindset of having to watch a video, but your OP actually makes a lot of sense. That's why we have statics, find like minded people who would like to tackle the content from the get go, without a guide. It's not fair to jump blind to a 1 y/o content when you're 1 new guy in 1 million other players. Instead find another 7 who's new and enjoy it together.