"I Was Out of That!" (Some Life Lessons)

[seekified]

You guys are taking this way too specifically. xD I have a very general point about bad client-side connections and gaming, that's all. Not particular fights, not even particular games - the Titan remark was just an example on the result that such problems can bring. And yeah, the netcode in FFXIV and the placement of the servers on the wrong continent for some of us, that aggravates the problem in our case, but still.

[randysquirrel]

1. People who are just bad, but lie and use lag as an excuse 10%
2. People who don't react quickly enough, and think it must be lag when it isn't 80%
3. People who genuinely have lag 10%

Yeah numbers out my ass. While there are some that actually do have lag, they are vastly outnumbered by those that are just slow, and so as soon as anyone says "I was out of that!" I usually just assume they probably weren't. Probably not right, but just being honest, this is what I do. Sorry genuine people, too many slow people use this tired old excuse

[JonBigwood]

TLDR

- Don't make excuses (no one cares why you cannot execute)
- How people feel about you is proportional to the value you provide them
- What we lack in natural ability can be compensated for with practice and hard work
- You can't control what others do. It is wrong to ask "Why do these things happen to me?" Instead ask: "What can I do right now to make this situation better?"
- Don't be afraid to step outside of your comfort zone once in a while

I mostly agree. When people say "I was out" it's not they think there was an error on the server and they really were out, just that they thought they were out. People who arrive to Titan EX know they have to be out of the AoE way before the animation comes, if not they will be killed. Sometimes you get killed the equivalent of 5 meters out of the place.

Things happen at different moments in you PC and the server. I usually arrive first to a door and when I open it, the guy that arrived clearly later had already opened it and my action is interrupted. In divebombs in T5 if you go at the same time than everybody, you are going late, you have to be a bit ahead of the group in your PC.

So I don't think when people say "I was out" they are making an excuse, just saying out loud their feelings (knowing that what they see is not what really happens in the server.)

I agree this game is multi player so if you are joining a party you should be as prepared as possible. Seeing a video or reading a guide helps just a bit to know what things look like and sort of what is going to happen, not much more in a difficult fight. But it's better than nothing.

In Europe/North American servers people usually go to Duty Finder to practice and later to Party Finder, unlike Japan where people (I read) usually practice in Party Finder and only join Duty Finder when they have exp. So if you join Duty Finder in Titan EX you know you most likely won't get a kill because probably there are some people with not enough experience there and it's a place where you have to wipe a lot of times until you can expect to win. All players being overgeared helps, but is not enough. Knowing that, I don't understand people that get desperate and quit quickly when they think that group won't kill in time. Even in helping progress groups with friends and FC members people lose patience too quickly.

Other question is most times when a group fails it's not just one person's fault. (Titan EX or T5 type of places may be exceptions since one person's fail may easily wipe the group.) The problem is when you try to see the reasons of the fail people may start to get defensive and the blame game may start, which does not help. Who was to blame is not important, what to do to improve is. And it is not always easy, sometimes there's not enough time. That's why static groups go advancing bit by bit until they, after many tries playing together, succeed.

[Purrfectstorm]

"No one knows they are going to lag until they go into the fight." Maybe so but you surely know you're lagging by the 10th time you can't get out of something. At some point you should stop holding others back because of your problems.

"You just want your DF experience to be better." No. I was trying to help YOUR DF experience be better. People won't carry you through difficult fights but some may be hostile towards you. As I said in my original post, personal accountability helps earn the goodwill of other players. Sometimes this personal accountability means admitting you made a mistake instead of blaming lag or leaving the instance if you truly are lagging.

"You're being elitist." LOL I'm about as casual as they come. I still haven't beaten T9 and I'm far more into collecting ponies and racing my chocobo than I am in getting through Final Coil. I wrote this thread because I was personally horrible at this game when I started and I almost gave up. Players were mean to me and I was always left out of content. But I got better and it was from adopting a different mindset. Players are hardly ever mean to me now. While I don't think players should be mean to anyone, it will happen to you far more if you are holding others back for whatever reason (lag, skill, etc.) When you take steps to become a better player, the community magically seems less toxic and the game becomes more fun to play.

"This attitude is hostile to new players." No. I don't think that helping players adopt a more positive mindset is hostile to any player, new or old.

"Watching a video first is unreasonable." In David Sirlin's Playing to Win, he talks about the "rules of a scrub." These rules include making up rules beyond the actual rules of the game. For example, "I won't watch a video for <insert reason here>" Videos are helpful tools. People who do the content the first time won't have access to them. So what? By the time most people do content those videos exist. Was it possible to beat the content without videos? Sure. Is it possible to beat the content now without videos? Certainly. Do strategies change after videos are made and will new players still make mistakes? Yes and yes.

However, do videos at least give people an idea how to perform mechanics and make the jobs of other players easier (less explaining, less wiping to some mechanics)? Absolutely! So you are refusing to use a tool at your disposal because of laziness, some strange code, or stubbornness. To me the only legitimate reasons for not watching a video first are: you can't (no access to youtube for some reason) or you relish the surprises. Except in the latter case, it's not really a surprise when players who've done the fight before tell you what the mechanics are. I probably won't convince anyone on this but it basically sums up how I feel about players not watching videos.

"Wiping is never one person's fault." Well I don't agree with this. A tank could turn a mountain buster into the whole party or DPS could break someone out of a gaol into a landslide. Being down a healer from the get go can be significant pressure on the remaining healer. Besides, even if failures involve multiple people, do you really want to be one of them? The fact that you don't feel motivated to do the right thing (improve) because others will also fail to is called "diffusion of responsibility." Maybe someone else is screwing up but that one screw up you DON'T make because you bothered to improve might actually save the day. How many fights are lost at 1% where a person not dying or DPS having done perfect rotations might have saved the day? I use HQ X-Potions of Strength sometimes in these tight circumstances. I also use food if I am looking to gain an edge. You can't say little things don't matter (insta-dying on WotL or Landslide is NOT a little thing); ANYTHING could matter.

"Lag is not an excuse." Literally the definition of an excuse is just a reason to justify something, whether the reason is the truth or not. If I'm sick and don't go into work, my being sick is an excuse. It may be a good excuse but it's still an excuse. I'm sorry that some players don't like this language as they think I'm implying that I believe they're lying. This is not the case. I don't CARE whether players are lying or telling the truth about lag. Does lag help the group win? No. Does telling us all you're lagging help the group win? No. Okay well maybe because we can just kick you and replace you with someone who won't lag.

[Purrfectstorm]

The other option is that you stop yourself being held back and manually make a better group. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish with this post of yours. The laggers have just as much a right to use DF as you do to try and clear content. You seem to suggest they should simply stop playing the game if their internet problems are unsolvable. Of course you can also kick the player holding you back assuming it's 7 against one. Use the tools the game gives you for controlling the group. That player has no obligation to leave just because their technical situation isn't as good as yours.

And guess what, people have "carried" you too when you were inexperienced and lacked gear. It's not a bad thing, as long as everyone is doing their best. There's always going to be someone better than you for whatever reason and they might just end up in your group. I doubt you would leave duty as soon as that happens.

I actually agree with most of what you're saying. People who are held back by people in DF will eventually make their own group. This is to the detriment of bad and/or lagging DF players though. These players are more likely to get the better and/or non-lagging players to stay if they make an effort to improve things on their end. It doesn't have to be lose-lose, it can be win-win, for everybody. As for the player with a bad technical situation having no obligation to leave, I agree with this also. However, again it is not likely that their sticking around will be of any benefit for anybody; they cannot enjoy the content (if they're laying in Titan's lava from the get-go) and are unlikely to actually clear it (the group kicks them or disbands).

And the only thing I'm trying to accomplish is to encourage dialogue about these types of things. I feel like I've succeeded. Not everyone agrees with me but that's fine, the information is there. Maybe my point of view is right, maybe it's wrong, but hopefully there is some benefit to sharing different perspectives. Even if I'm really an elitist jerk and just can't see it, at least now players will know what us elitist jerks are thinking when they get the "You have been removed from duty" message

[Richiealvian]

"No one knows they are going to lag until they go into the fight." Maybe so but you surely know you're lagging by the 10th time you can't get out of something. At some point you should stop holding others back because of your problems.

"You just want your DF experience to be better." No. I was trying to help YOUR DF experience be better. People won't carry you through difficult fights but some may be hostile towards you. As I said in my original post, personal accountability helps earn the goodwill of other players. Sometimes this personal accountability means admitting you made a mistake instead of blaming lag or leaving the instance if you truly are lagging.

"You're being elitist." LOL I'm about as casual as they come. I still haven't beaten T9 and I'm far more into collecting ponies and racing my chocobo than I am in getting through Final Coil. I wrote this thread because I was personally horrible at this game when I started and I almost gave up. Players were mean to me and I was always left out of content. But I got better and it was from adopting a different mindset. Players are hardly ever mean to me now. While I don't think players should be mean to anyone, it will happen to you far more if you are holding others back for whatever reason (lag, skill, etc.) When you take steps to become a better player, the community magically seems less toxic and the game becomes more fun to play.

"This attitude is hostile to new players." No. I don't think that helping players adopt a more positive mindset is hostile to any player, new or old.

"Watching a video first is unreasonable." In David Sirlin's Playing to Win, he talks about the "rules of a scrub." These rules include making up rules beyond the actual rules of the game. For example, "I won't watch a video for <insert reason here>" Videos are helpful tools. People who do the content the first time won't have access to them. So what? By the time most people do content those videos exist. Was it possible to beat the content without videos? Sure. Is it possible to beat the content now without videos? Certainly. Do strategies change after videos are made and will new players still make mistakes? Yes and yes.

However, do videos at least give people an idea how to perform mechanics and make the jobs of other players easier (less explaining, less wiping to some mechanics)? Absolutely! So you are refusing to use a tool at your disposal because of laziness, some strange code, or stubbornness. To me the only legitimate reasons for not watching a video first are: you can't (no access to youtube for some reason) or you relish the surprises. Except in the latter case, it's not really a surprise when players who've done the fight before tell you what the mechanics are. I probably won't convince anyone on this but it basically sums up how I feel about players not watching videos.

"Wiping is never one person's fault." Well I don't agree with this. A tank could turn a mountain buster into the whole party or DPS could break someone out of a gaol into a landslide. Being down a healer from the get go can be significant pressure on the remaining healer. Besides, even if failures involve multiple people, do you really want to be one of them? The fact that you don't feel motivated to do the right thing (improve) because others will also fail to is called "diffusion of responsibility." Maybe someone else is screwing up but that one screw up you DON'T make because you bothered to improve might actually save the day. How many fights are lost at 1% where a person not dying or DPS having done perfect rotations might have saved the day? I use HQ X-Potions of Strength sometimes in these tight circumstances. I also use food if I am looking to gain an edge. You can't say little things don't matter (insta-dying on WotL or Landslide is NOT a little thing); ANYTHING could matter.

"Lag is not an excuse." Literally the definition of an excuse is just a reason to justify something, whether the reason is the truth or not. If I'm sick and don't go into work, my being sick is an excuse. It may be a good excuse but it's still an excuse. I'm sorry that some players don't like this language as they think I'm implying that I believe they're lying. This is not the case. I don't CARE whether players are lying or telling the truth about lag. Does lag help the group win? No. Does telling us all you're lagging help the group win? No. Okay well maybe because we can just kick you and replace you with someone who won't lag.

I don't usually agree with the mindset of having to watch a video, but your OP actually makes a lot of sense. That's why we have statics, find like minded people who would like to tackle the content from the get go, without a guide. It's not fair to jump blind to a 1 y/o content when you're 1 new guy in 1 million other players. Instead find another 7 who's new and enjoy it together.

[Lilyarel]

Lag does randomly happen though. You cant anticipate it.
I was doing a Levi Ex run with my friends and I suddenly started lagging something fierce. I had to reset my modem and route to fix the issue. As they say; **** happens.

[Kallera]

Purrfectstorm, just stop. People have already taken what you meant and will eventually piss off players on both ends accordingly.

[Fynlar]

"You're being elitist." LOL I'm about as casual as they come. I still haven't beaten T9 and I'm far more into collecting ponies and racing my chocobo than I am in getting through Final Coil.

Elitists don't have to be endgamers. People had very elitist attitudes with goddamn Brayflox speedruns.