The relic weapon quest is OBSCENELY boring...

[Wournsfeik_Untawhasyn]

...

Okay, actual serious post time.

Relic was designed to be 'Time versus Difficulty', it's the extreme end of the Time Spectrum. Is the RNG associated with some of the steps punishing? Sure, but y'know, it's really the only solid example of 'hahaHA, RNG has screwed you' in this game. Raids at the extreme end are similar, but only when the weekly lockout is a thing. After that nobody cares. The thing is the reason this argument is used is it's not worthless.

You have three/four options for gear:

1. (Low Time, High Cost): A Crafted Weapon, pentamelded if you care.
2. (Middling Time, Some Cost, High Skill): Coil Gear, RNG-y but if you have T13 on farm, it'll drop eventually
3. (High Time, Some Cost, Low Skill): Relic Weapon, still RNG-y but only during specific sections, designed to be pure grind out of the request for some high end grindy content not unlike Trial of the Magians.
4. (Middling Time, Some Cost, Low Skill): Your Tome Weapon. Not hard to get, perfectly serviceable even if it's not BiS.

Considering you have three other options: then Relic as it stands now is not terrible (and yes, I spent about 1 month on 1 Atma prenerf, I remember that frustration. I'm glad the drop rate is higher, but I also remember how good it felt to get that last one)

[Stanelis]

Okay, actual serious post time.

Relic was designed to be 'Time versus Difficulty', it's the extreme end of the Time Spectrum. Is the RNG associated with some of the steps punishing? Sure, but y'know, it's really the only solid example of 'hahaHA, RNG has screwed you' in this game. Raids at the extreme end are similar, but only when the weekly lockout is a thing. After that nobody cares. The thing is the reason this argument is used is it's not worthless.

You have three/four options for gear:

1. (Low Time, High Cost): A Crafted Weapon, pentamelded if you care.
2. (Middling Time, Some Cost, High Skill): Coil Gear, RNG-y but if you have T13 on farm, it'll drop eventually
3. (High Time, Some Cost, Low Skill): Relic Weapon, still RNG-y but only during specific sections, designed to be pure grind out of the request for some high end grindy content not unlike Trial of the Magians.
4. (Middling Time, Some Cost, Low Skill): Your Tome Weapon. Not hard to get, perfectly serviceable even if it's not BiS.

Considering you have three other options: then Relic as it stands now is not terrible (and yes, I spent about 1 month on 1 Atma prenerf, I remember that frustration. I'm glad the drop rate is higher, but I also remember how good it felt to get that last one)

You know, you could imagine something which take a while to obtain without being as boring to farm as the current zodiac weapons.

But then SE would have to actually stop trying to recycle the content you've already completed several times (having to farm fates in low level areas for atmas, as an example, was a poor joke, as you already have to farm fates to level up). Also That relic weapon was full of awful idea (who remember having to wait a few hours for a particular fate to spawn, during the animus step of the weapon ?).

The fact that SE wants something in the game to take a while to obtain doesn't imply it must be as boring as it is now.

However, it is pretty obvious that most steps of that relic are intended to make sure high level players still farm the lower level content rather to entertain the players. And that is what disturb me the most.

[Kosmos992k]

You know, you could imagine something which take a while to obtain without being as boring to farm as the current zodiac weapons.

But then SE would have to actually stop trying to recycle the content you've already completed several times (having to farm fates in low level areas for atmas, as an example, was a poor joke, as you already have to farm fates to level up). Also That relic weapon was full of awful idea (who remember having to wait a few hours for a particular fate to spawn, during the animus step of the weapon ?).

The fact that SE wants something in the game to take a while to obtain doesn't imply it must be as boring as it is now.

Or you could have taken it easy instead of grinding it out in weeks, and benefited from the enhanced Atma drop rate... :P

[Wournsfeik_Untawhasyn]

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You obviously don't know how to handle a grind. While I was doing that I was catching up on my shows or listening to awesome music or working on improving my rotations. You go into these things with an extra objective in mind. You bring stuff to craft in the field or stuff to track like more SB gear. The only part that got a little annoying to handle was the FATE spawns for Animus. But I dealt with Lottery Spawn NMs in FFXI that wouldn't spawn for literally days. So to me that sounds like a hollow complaint. Nobody said you had to do Animus books, and if you weren't on the tip of Relic progression you would've had plenty of warning when you went looking into it.

The purpose of Relic is to get the most out of old content. And while I'll agree it showed some of the issues with the FATE system (that being a absolute lack of control on the player's part. None as opposed to any kind of slight nudging we can do. Even like being able to interact with something to bump up a FATE's position in the queue/FATE cooldown time), but none of it was as bad as you're making it out to be if you go in expecting the grind. I could finish an Animus book done in a Night and I only had maybe 4 hours to give. You just have to tackle it right.

[Stanelis]

You obviously don't know how to handle a grind. While I was doing that I was catching up on my shows or listening to awesome music or working on improving my rotations. You go into these things with an extra objective in mind. You bring stuff to craft in the field or stuff to track like more SB gear. The only part that got a little annoying to handle was the FATE spawns for Animus. But I dealt with Lottery Spawn NMs in FFXI that wouldn't spawn for literally days. So to me that sounds like a hollow complaint. Nobody said you had to do Animus books, and if you weren't on the tip of Relic progression you would've had plenty of warning when you went looking into it.

The purpose of Relic is to get the most out of old content. And while I'll agree it showed some of the issues with the FATE system (that being a absolute lack of control on the player's part. None as opposed to any kind of slight nudging we can do. Even like being able to interact with something to bump up a FATE's position in the queue/FATE cooldown time), but none of it was as bad as you're making it out to be if you go in expecting the grind. I could finish an Animus book done in a Night and I only had maybe 4 hours to give. You just have to tackle it right.

Well I think I do, thank you very much. Nobody's here is complaining that it was too hard (please), also, nobody said it wasn't possible to farm for a zodiax, but that it was boring. We re talking about entertainment here. Also, there is not much to do while you wait for a fate in any given zone. Because if you stray away you take the risk that the fate will spawn and be completed before you come back (and as some fates of the books had like 2~4 hours respawn timers it wasn't a trivial).

Some people here actually talked about feeling accomplished by completing the relic quest. Personally, to be honest, I only felt relief each time I completed a step. Relief that the grind was over (until the next patch).

And be sure I noticed those animus fate with lower spawn rates than the normal ones. I also played FFXI and camped those, NM, but that wasn't the best mechanic of FFXI, to say the least.

Or you could have taken it easy instead of grinding it out in weeks, and benefited from the enhanced Atma drop rate... :P

That's what I did, in the end (however, I got my atma in 8 hours at the beginning, but it was still 8 worthless hours of zerging fates, I don't know how people can defend those sort of grind, that's just 100 % boring, there is no challenge and you don't even play your class). Couldn't stand running Brayflox hundreds of times to get enough tomestone to buy books or spam Garuda to get the lights during nexus.

However it doesn't change the fact that it is terrible game design, no matter how you present it.

[Lemuria]

Raids at the extreme end are similar, but only when the weekly lockout is a thing. After that nobody cares. The thing is the reason this argument is used is it's not worthless.

Sorry, but it remains a worthless argument.

1. (Low Time, High Cost): A Crafted Weapon, pentamelded if you care.

The best crafted weapons are level 110, which already matches Novus level on a relic. There's a lot of grind needed to even get to that stage.

2. (Middling Time, Some Cost, High Skill): Coil Gear, RNG-y but if you have T13 on farm, it'll drop eventually

Worth noting that the drops from said content are equal in level to a fully upgraded Zeta Zodiac at this stage.

4. (Middling Time, Some Cost, Low Skill): Your Tome Weapon. Not hard to get, perfectly serviceable even if it's not BiS.

This here is why the argument fails as an argument. In three weeks you can have a level 130 weapon which is stronger than a base zodiac weapon. Thats months of grind worths of content in a mere 3 weeks by comparison. Better still, it doesn't require any high skill level or grind to obtain.

The real reason the argument falls apart though is because you have STILL not justified why this has to be such a long-winded and BORING quest for such small gains. I need to wait four hours for a Fate, kill 100 enemies, do 3 dungeons and multiple levequests (which don't always appear as an option initially) for a measly +2 vitality? I have to grind 2000 light for +2 weapon strength and +3 vitality? The rewards do not match the time spent on the content.

What's worse is that people will happily eat this content up because, like a starved dog, we lack for content so any bone thrown our way seems like a massive step up from the dust we've been eating thus far. Take a long hard look at the game as a whole. How much of it is rehashed and revisited content as opposed to adding new twists and new ideas? We grind tomes by revisiting the same dungeons we've done countless times before. The same primals. The same boss fights. The same content over and over until you're sick with the stuff.

The problem is that none of these areas are remotely dynamic. They're unchanging. The same number of enemies in the same formations with the same attack patterns. It's as predictable as knowing the sun will rise in the morning. Now look at other games which offer similar content. Overworld areas being utilized for grinds, with their random spawns and dangers, dungeons with varying paths or different ways to complete them.

FFXIV has so much potential, but if it continues to play out in this manner it won't have a very long life. It's in danger of becoming so homogenized that it's indistinguishable from the crowd. It's storyline is it's most compelling aspect so far, and it has room for growth if they choose to do so. In that regard, Heavensward is looking amazing and will certainly raise the bar for future updates. That's not an excuse for the rubbish grindy mess we've got so far, and the zodiac weapons are a prime example of an idea gone horribly wrong.

Forcing players to replay old content with little to no reward isn't fun. It's a half-assed attempt to keep that old content on life support as the gear treadmill pushes players towards the higher level dungeons and away from the newbie areas. None of that issue would even exist if the content had been designed with that in mind from the start, let alone dragged along further by the constant removal of old currencies and the addition of new ones.

tl;dr. Don't excuse poor content just because it's the only content.

[Wournsfeik_Untawhasyn]

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tl;dr. Don't excuse poor content just because it's the only content.

It's not the only content though. Also at no point throughout my entire Animus section did I ever wait even 4 hours for a FATE. I know some have that issue, but that's why you target FATEs are priority and do other things in those zones while you wait, overlapping your time. By your argument you shouldn't bother doing any content until patch 2.55 hit because it's all literally now worthless at this point in time. Which is a poorly conceived argument at best. As someone already stated, plenty of people complained that the original leg was so boring and easy that many people just relic'd out with Zenith for all of their classes. And had it continued like that for up to Zeta that weapon who's stats YOU personally get to choose and cultivate would have been more powerful than the Raid Weapon for nowhere near the effort or patience.

How would that have been remotely fair to the others who were putting effort into their weapons or giving up weeks from their Poetics farming or working with crafters (or blowing millions on the MB for the proper materia).

The only reason you're having any issues at all is because as I pointed out, you're not tackling the grind correctly. You're not ensuring you're accomplishing multiple goals at once, and in essence are wasting a lot of time.

Now, on the remark about the grindy and rehashed content. ARR was never going to be h-amazing! it's goal was the pull a failing game out of the fire, dust it off and give it a chance. They had to play it somewhat safe. Now that it's successful I expect and hope that Heavensward brings us new ways to fight, explore, and cooperate with not only our FCs but with our community to surmount huge challenges. I love some of the ideas they've thrown out about exploration using Company Airships, and I'm hoping at least one leg of the next Relic journey allows for use of that system to help get whatever material is necessary at that stage (but don't make it required, that'd be bad). The Zodiac Relic weapon saga did one thing very right: It was a tour de force of the content of the game.

[Lemuria]

It's not the only content though.

Please at least put in a little effort towards comprehension. What was meant by that snippet is that you're not crossing any new ground by working towards a relic. You're retreading old ground. Old dungeons, old fights, old content. It's not 'new', it's just being revisited.

Also at no point throughout my entire Animus section did I ever wait even 4 hours for a FATE. I know some have that issue, but that's why you target FATEs are priority and do other things in those zones while you wait, overlapping your time.

Genius. Why didn't I think of that? Oh wait, I did. Most of the 'content' in those areas is done within a few minutes, but those Fates can literally take hours to spawn. Great that you're one of the amazingly lucky few who never had to wait, but many of us did. Consider yourself the exception, not the rule.

By your argument you shouldn't bother doing any content until patch 2.55 hit because it's all literally now worthless at this point in time.

Worthless? No. But going over the same content ad infinity isn't going to carry this game long term. The last few updates were essentially the same. 3 New dungeons, replace old tomes with new ones. Add new gear which is higher item level, but otherwise virtually identical. Feed people the same stuff for so long, and they get so used to it that even a minor change feels like a world-changing one.

As someone already stated, plenty of people complained that the original leg was so boring and easy that many people just relic'd out with Zenith for all of their classes. And had it continued like that for up to Zeta that weapon who's stats YOU personally get to choose and cultivate would have been more powerful than the Raid Weapon for nowhere near the effort or patience.

Plenty of people? Please point me to these people, because so far all I've seen is praise for the initial Zenith weapon quest. It was varied, showed real progression and, while easy, infinitely more enjoyable than the grind which follows. There are means and ways to make things take longer without them being nearly as boring. At the very least some new zodiac-specific content would have been preferable to recycling old dungeons.

The only reason you're having any issues at all is because as I pointed out, you're not tackling the grind correctly. You're not ensuring you're accomplishing multiple goals at once, and in essence are wasting a lot of time.

Oh, I'm so sorry. How exactly was I supposed to tackle the Animus to Novus stage while accomplishing multiple goals? I didn't realise I could craft my way to getting 75 alexandrite, or mine them out of a rock somewhere. Perhaps they drop from meaningful a dungeon I missed somewhere...? Nope. It drops from 2 places. Maps, which require grinding dungeons for tomes to purchase or daily roulette, and Fates.

Incidentally, it's been the casual nature of my progress through Nexus light which is the reason it has taken me months (yes MONTHS) just to hit 80%. With a measly +32 at best given from any one piece of content (and even that's with bonus light) it would take a minimum of 63 runs to accomplish. Realistically speaking, since I'm doing dailies and weeklies, it would take around 167 dungeons to complete. At roughly 20 minutes each that's a total of 55 and a half hours end to end. That's longer than an entire play-through of any previous final fantasy game. And that doesn't even consider finding a party or potential new players on the team.

[Wournsfeik_Untawhasyn]

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*sigh*

So you rail at me instead of actually trying to apply my suggestions. Thanks so much for that.

I know what you meant when you said this was the only content. But apparently you didn't catch what I meant when I fired back that you are not being bound to finish your Relic. We know they're giving us something new in Heavensward, that they've promised is not nearly as bad. At this point I doubt the Relic for 2.0 is changing much outside of drop rate adjustments and maybe FATE spawn timers. So there's no point in yelling about it. It's just a wasted effort.

And maybe you can't craft your way to 75 Alexandrite. But you certainly can work on SBing for your Novus or Gil while you Farm for Atma, do your books, Alexandrite farming, Nexus Light Farming, Zodiac Farming, and Zeta farming. Fun note about that, if you happen to be trying to be doing Gathering and Crafting at the same time, it's basically a case where yes, you can just strap on some Craft/Gather gear and Spiritbind that for your melds. So really it can be used to keep you going without running on fumes, because at least while you're doing it you're for sure accomplishing something. Heck, it can be the background to you getting your SBing done for Crafts/Gathers. Or for grinding for Achievements.

I'm using Nexus light as my excuse to finally start Triple Triad proper. Now that I need to grind the content that can drop those cards I'm just running for the ones I'm missing over and over, it might not be fast, but each card I get is an accomplishment as I get my light.

And on the addressing that it's boring: It's a grind. Sorry, by definition you don't call things 'fun' a grind. You've got to learn to make it fun. I use the example where on my Nth-Hundred run of Haukke Manor I finally got fed up just doing straight runs at 2 am in the morning and just waltz'd around with the team acting like a real estate salesman. Team had a ton of fun and I cleaned up the commendations with lots of thank yous for the laughs. Something that never would've happened for anyone without Relic. So it's done some good.

[Ashkendor]

The best crafted weapons are level 110, which already matches Novus level on a relic. There's a lot of grind needed to even get to that stage.

The difference is, the Novus has potential to improve. The crafted weapon will never go higher than i110.

Worth noting that the drops from said content are equal in level to a fully upgraded Zeta Zodiac at this stage.

Equal in item level sure, but not equal in stats. Zeta gives the stats of your choice, and it gives more of them.

I need to wait four hours for a Fate, kill 100 enemies, do 3 dungeons and multiple levequests (which don't always appear as an option initially) for a measly +2 vitality? I have to grind 2000 light for +2 weapon strength and +3 vitality? The rewards do not match the time spent on the content.

Sorry but I have to call you on that blatant exaggeration - nobody's waiting four hours for the fates anymore. The longest I've waited is 15-20 minutes; if you hang out on any one of those maps for a few hours and pay attention, you will see the fates several times. They pop incredibly often now. I use the enemy kills to spiritbond and get chocobo experience. The levequests are a joke. You can finish each one in 1-2 minutes even on a tank class. The mobs are pathetically squishy and the mechanics can be largely ignored in favor of just murdering things.

As far as the grind itself, you have to remember that the quest chain was put in in installments. Each one of these steps was meant to keep people busy for awhile until the next major patch content went in. Doing the quest now is like reading all of the parts of a serial novel back to back. Sure you get the whole story all at once, but it's also pretty long. Some of the requirements have been eased (atma drop rate, alex drop rate, cost of books was lowered, fate timers were fixed, light was halved) but it still does require a fair amount of effort to put a relic together.

Oh, I'm so sorry. How exactly was I supposed to tackle the Animus to Novus stage while accomplishing multiple goals? I didn't realise I could craft my way to getting 75 alexandrite, or mine them out of a rock somewhere. Perhaps they drop from meaningful a dungeon I missed somewhere...? Nope. It drops from 2 places. Maps, which require grinding dungeons for tomes to purchase or daily roulette, and Fates.

Cmon, think outside the box a little. I've used the mob kills to level my chocobo and spiritbond an ungodly amount of gear.

tl;dr. Don't excuse poor content just because it's the only content.

But it's not the only content. My static can farm T13 but I'm still making a fourth Zeta relic (ok that's partly cause 3 people are in line for claws before me but still). It's something constructive to do to pass the time until Heavensward. It doesn't require a huge investment as far as learning new things. I get to go back and tread familiar ground again and I don't mind that. I like running into newbies in the dungeons I'm doing. It reinforces to me that that's precisely why we're being shuffled back into the older stuff time and time again - to keep the Duty Finder churning for new people.

Plenty of people? Please point me to these people, because so far all I've seen is praise for the initial Zenith weapon quest. It was varied, showed real progression and, while easy, infinitely more enjoyable than the grind which follows.

Uhhhhh... collecting 900 myth tomes for Thavnairian Mist is varied and infinitely more enjoyable than the grind which follows? Last I checked that was 2 or 3 weeks of grinding dungeons, depending on if the cap was 300 or 450 whenever you did yours. Are you maybe referring to the base relic quest? :P