New tanking abilities in the expansion thread!

[Brannigan]

Warrior vs Paladin is Consistency vs Situational
...
Also compared to warrior, pld has worse cross skill choices.

Although the stun component of Brutal Swing is pretty much null on everything, Warriors still get to use it on everything since it's free and does damage. You can't say the same for stuff like Flash and Shield Bash. And honestly, while everyone uses Shield Swipe, it's very mediocre and only gets so much praise because the rest of paladin's kit is bad. It's like a 3% dps increase over your Halone combo and basically only lets you save TP while continuing your damage. Also yeah, paladin's cross-class is horrible. Probably the worst in the game.


What paladin really needs to be interesting in 3.0 is stuff like:

-A way to spend MP that isn't cross-class, flash, or stance switching. Stoneskin is alright, but it punishes you pretty harshly for using it by breaking combos, stopping autoattacks, being easily interrupted, and applying very slowly. It doesn't have to be a heal. It could even be a damaging ability
-WS that causes buffs on the paladin. It could be a stacking buff you want to maintain (+attack speed, double auto attacks, whatever), or a buff that is consumed (your next Riot Blade deals double damage and restores more MP), or something else. I don't know.
-A WS that debuffs the enemy. Honestly, they could just take the Rage of Halone debuff and stick it on Riot Blade instead.
-A WS that does different things depending on what Oath you're in. I'm surprised we don't have this already. Spirits Within isn't a WS, but it probably should change what it does with each Oath as well.
-More stuff that works on EVERYTHING and allows core changes to how paladin is played.

I think it goes without saying that stuff like this should be part of new combos and not stand-alone abilities. What paladin really, really doesn't need is stuff like

-New oaths. Passive crap.
-Set and forget stuff in general (oaths, poisons, "Protect"-like buffs)
-Cooldowns that don't do anything interesting and have no opportunity cost or other drawback. We have Rampart and Sentinel which already basically do the same thing (reduce damage by X%), along with Bulwark and Foresight which function very similarly against physical. Really, we don't need any cooldowns that have longer recasts than like 30 seconds.
-Amazingly overpowered debuffs that don't work on anything in the game (Hi Pacification)
-an AOE attack. Seriously, we're only getting like 4-5 abilities (if that). Hopefully one isn't wasted on dungeon speed running crap. If they really want to do this, they should just make Overpower cross-classable and give it a WAR-only debuff.

Anyway, I've kind of rambled on here, but I'm getting antsy since we've had nearly zero information about new abilities. Warrior got a complete overhaul in 2.1 or whatever and there's pretty much nothing they need now to be a "complete" class, so anything new they get in the expac is just awesome extras. Hopefully paladin gets reworked a little bit to be more a complete experience, but I'm not holding my breath.

[VargasVermillion]

What PLD needs is a mechanic, something to set it apart from everyone else and make it feel like a fun job to play.

This is exactly what I want, once DRK comes out we are going to have 2 tanks with their own identities and mechanics, paladin is literally 'a tank'. It has nothing unique. People like to argue about whether they should get more aoe, damage or whatever but I don't care about all that I just want it to have it's own play style, 'simple' doesn't count. You can have simple design and still make it interesting/unique.

Now you can say 'play warrior/dark knight' which I already do/will do but it still doesn't change the fact I like the sword and board tank. just needs to have more thought put into how it plays, not just more complex.

[Brannigan]

Paladin's mechanic/special resource should have always been MP since we have so much and have a way to restore it, but that's going to dark knight. So who knows.

[Jandor]

It would be nice if Paladin got some light magic to contrast Dark Knights darkness magic.
If you think of the tanks as having a secondary focus I always felt Paladins was 'support'. With cover, protect and stoneskin we're able to protect party members without having to have everything hitting only us. It would be nice if that was expanded on a little bit as well.

Ability ideas:
Rally: Restores 15% HP/MP/TP to a party member, long cool down.
Inspire: Increases a party members attack and defense for a short time.
Phalanx: Uses all your MP to create a damage reduction buff (short duration) on self and nearby party members. 1500MP would reduce damage by 15%, 1000MP for 10%, etc.
Enlight: Uses MP, gives Enlight buff for a short duration which adds light magic damage to physical attacks and makes flash do minor damage.
Banish: Uses MP. Finishes Riot Blade combo, does damage and applies minor debuff to target increasing vulnerability to magic damage when combo'd. Ranged attack for added magical flavor.

[Cariborne]

- Paladin Abilities -
Thunder Slash: Deals lightning damage with a potency of 100. Your next spell is cast immediate and its healing potency is quadrupled. Recast: 60s.

I really like this idea, gives you a quick Stoneskin or a nice Cure to help you up. Good for solo'ing and group play. Maybe up the damage a bit because it's on a 60s CD, but for the overall ability I really like this idea.

[TouchandFeel]

...What paladin really needs to be interesting in 3.0 is stuff like ...
...What paladin really, really doesn't need is stuff like ...

That is one of the better compilations of ideas for improving PLD game-play that I have seen in one of these threads and I pretty much agree with everything.

The two suggestions that I particularly liked were the attacks/combos that apply stacking buffs to the PLD and WS/Combos that do different effects depending on the Oath the PLD is in.

In fact, combining many of those things and putting a much greater emphasis on Oath swapping, ie making it necessary to perform optimally, would be the exact kind of "mechanic" that PLD needs.

Some off the cuff thoughts on what could be done with this concept.
- Oaths are taken off GCD but have a short cool down time (6 seconds?) shared between them.
- Rage of Halone combo now does a differing effect depending on what Oath you are in (ShO: -10% strength debuff, SwO: +X% spell speed self buff that can stack up to Y times)
- Riot Blade combo gets a 3rd attack (Althyk's Judgment?) whose effect differs depending on Oath (ShO: self buff where next block reflects blocked damage back to the attacker and can stack X amount of times but one stack is consumed per reflected block, SwO: debuff where target takes X% more Magic or some other type of damage)

Asides from the stuff listed out, I would like to see more of a focus on Team focused support abilities like Cover and advancing those so they become more interesting and can reward the team for working together.
For example ways to advance Cover as an evolution of that ability or maybe a whole new ability.
- Cover now links to all party members in range and redirects damage from them. For every party member linked you receive one stack of a buff that decreases damage taken by X% (any damage, not just redirected damage). I brought this up a few posts back, but it was fitting as an example.
- Any party members linked to the PLD through Cover are healed for X% of any healing the PLD receives.

Those are just some quick and dirty ideas.

I'm really really hoping that the Dev team are planning to do such things with the expansion, but tbh I too am hesitant to believe they will.

But yes, they really need to do some change up to give PLD a stronger sense of identity and less boilerplate tank.

[Shurrikhan]

-A way to spend MP that isn't cross-class, flash, or stance switching. Stoneskin is alright, but it punishes you pretty harshly for using it by breaking combos, stopping autoattacks, being easily interrupted, and applying very slowly. It doesn't have to be a heal. It could even be a damaging ability

I have to wonder what could be done with the addition of a some dynamic abilities, such as Riot Blade consuming MP for bonus damage (with a large bonus for each debuff you've placed on the target) instead of restoring it when over 70% mana, or all mana-costing abilities charging either oath for a mana-free ability that is adjusted with Oath - placing a much quicker, 1-move physical full cover and a short magic partial oGCD cover on an ally in Shield--call it Aegis Boon or whatnot--that causes some healing to both you and the target, shared proportional to health, based on your block value, and some manner of offensive debuff (brief bonus magic damage, up to a certain total bonus, and deals bonus damage to target and any nearby enemies if affected with Flash; may increase Flash duration on the target)--Luminous Spire, maybe?)

I've seen/heard a lot of people suggest that PLD needs a Riot Blade ender. While this would be nice simply for some versatility, I don't think it's the solution. What PLD needs is a mechanic, something to set it apart from everyone else and make it feel like a fun job to play. I don't know what that mechanic would be as I'm no game designer and I don't want to talk with authority like I've any idea what the solution would be, but just give us something to consider when we're pressing 123 500 times besides "did Shield Swipe proc?".

I agree that a Riot Blade ender wouldn't add much, but at the same time I think that right now even more than something unique, what we need is versatility among our core abilities; we can find a good direction for something a bit more unique from those results. (I also think that the emphasis on the unique mechanics you listed may be a bit overstated, as Aetherflow is used on CD, the chief objective of any Monk is to basically turn Greased Lightning into a passive ability (always up, always III), and jumps are no different, really, from any other free oGCD, albeit with a gap-closer on two of them. The rotational variance, such as saving AF stacks for Raging Strikes, how many non-stance moves one can use within a Couerl period, and how best to weave oGCDs, is usually the more interesting component despite being far from unique.) Shield Bash sees no use outside of stunlocking certain adds, the occasional interrupt, and the very rare mitigational stun (all at high TP cost). Shield Swipe is single-target while its procs excel only in AoE situations. The ability that makes it actually proc decently in single-target (Bulwark) still doesn't buff the blow itself, let alone make it strong enough to be useful except in a long fight, due to its poor enmity returns. Riot Blade is only used in oath-dances to avoid staying in Sword for an whole RoH and to make up for stoneskin spams that you were likely already only doing to save some TP (natural mp regen covers most MT stoneskin needs against bosses whose AAs tend to interrupt). Cover is commonly impeded by either its CD or duration being too long, the inability to easily cancel, and poor activation speed. More than even being 'situational' in the course of a fight--like modified rotations for dps/WAR--they're 'niche' in that they only even appear in certain fights. Modifying some of these abilities to at least move them into the situational/mostly-versatile range of attacks would be a large help.

Edit of edit: moved edit to next post.

[Feylie]

Paladin's mechanic/special resource should have always been MP since we have so much and have a way to restore it, but that's going to dark knight. So who knows.

TBH, it really comes down to the combo system. Input A>B>C, where each is worthless without following the sequence. It's more fun on DPS because of all the buttons they get to press to do it, but with PLD and WAR it's so streamlined that it doesn't even take thought.

Like you already mentioned, the expansion of PLD isn't an extended riot blade combo, or a new type of AOE. It's having more weapon skills to make us dynamic. I would go as far as to say that they should all be offensive oriented weapon skills, because we really don't need any more tools to hold aggro.

Tank PLD? Shield Oath, 1-2-3+Circle+Spirits.
DPS PLD? Sword Oath, 1-2-3+Circle+Spirits.

RIP.

[Shurrikhan]

Okay, lastest version of PLD revision suggestions, moved down from the edit portion of the last post.

- Sword moves and Shield Moves on seperate GCD systems, but animation times still cut into potential rate of ability usage. If alternating each ability between sets, you would see your rate of fire increased by roughly 33%, similar to using an especially long-animation oGCD between each attack on another class. Oaths will adjust how this works, directly and indirectly.
- Shield Oath lies in Shield system, allowing quick swaps back to shield after finishing a combo and to sword moves when needing quick threat.
- Sword Oath lies in Sword system, allowing quick swaps during a Guard for a protected swap, and quick access to cover options, etc. (Not totally ideal, but better than ShO in Sword system when really needing immediate threat)
- Flash will use either GCD system.
- Oaths have their own resource, which can be built up and regenerate over time. For now this will just be called "Oath". Each Oath builds 'Oath' through related actions and enbonuses certain related actions at cost of Oath; it's a balancing act of sorts, sacrifice some resource to gain more, then gradually burn, rebuild, burst, etc.. Passive effects of your current Oath are slightly proportional to your 'Oath' (resource). 'Oath' is shared between both Oaths; you can burst dps in Sword Oath, charging 'Oath', in order to have a large passive mitigation bonus ready for you right as you swap in with Shield Oath.
- Using Oaths (not just swapping) will now consume mana and Oath in some manner or other for bonus effects on related abilities.
- Consuming mana by other means (Cure, Stoneskin, Flash) will also somewhat build Oath.
?? (I've thought of changing this to just mana, but then Curing and Stoneskinning would consume Oath with no way to bolster their effects proportionately, and Ballad would vastly outdo anything Army's Paeon could grant to a Paladin.)
- Using no Oath has some situational use, functioning as a mana-conservative middle-ground.
- The base passive effects of the Oaths has been decreased, but is made up for in other ways. (I am still working out the details...)
:: In addition to enmity and passive mitigation bonuses, Shield Oath will augment Shield Bash, Shield Swipe, Shield Lob, Bulwark, and Guard (see below).
:: Sword Oath will augment Flash (in a single-target manner), Riot Blade, Spirits Within, Auto-attacks, and combo-ing in general.
:: New proc-like mechanics added.
o Noticeable increase to AoE damage without adding any new abilities, especially through Oath-based augmentations to Riot Blade and Spirits Within paired with Flash in Sword Oath, and almost all Shield moves paired with Shield Oath.
o Native (no Oath needed) bonuses to: Flash (separate status effect and thereby somewhat seperate diminishing return system, necessary for the above AoEs), Shield Bash (refunds 40 TP when it cannot stun), Shield Swipe (may slightly cleave, and will not always cause diminishing returns to Pacify), Fast Blade (crits will trigger a shortened GCD), Savage Blade (crits may proc defensive abilities such as Shield Swipe or Haymaker), and Riot Blade (will deal 10 additional potency and will have a 5% increased critical strike chance for each debuff you have caused on the target - up to 290 potency and +30% crit chance when affected by Silence, Magic Vulnerability (SwOth-SW), Strength-Down, Flash/Blind, Guard (SwOth), and Pacify).
?? May give the RB bonuses a diminishing return of some sort, or just leave that to the difficulty of having so many debuffs up. (Impossible after 2st Pacify or 3rd Flash/Blind, and would require incredibly low ping to get in RB while Silence is still up.)
o Higher value of Critical Strike Rating and Skill Speed based on proc-/proc-like systems.


- Active Block ability added, modified by which, if any, Oath you are using.
?? I'm intending for this not to be a spammed ability, but have yet to work out how to prevent that, such as by having a large portion of its effects be in a lingering bonus within Shield Oath that another Guard soon after wouldn't really stack upon, hard diminishing returns, or whatnot.

>> Guard: Increases block rating by 25%, base block chance by 13%, and block strength by 10% for up to 2.5 seconds, channeled. Lasts for the greater of one attack or X damage (based on health, defense, and HP). Immediate cost of 30 TP, and an additional 10 TP each second. Can be cancelled by hitting the ability again after .5 seconds. Your movement is slowed by 30% and you are animation-locked for the duration. May target either an ally or enemy for additional effect. Targeting an ally will cause him or her to be immune to critical blows for 3 seconds (effective within 10 yalms) and causing you to intercept both a flat amount equal up to the greater of 20% of your maximum health and 25% of your current health (effective within 5 yalms). If the ally dodges, blocks, or parries, you will generate effects as if you did so as well. Targeting an enemy will increase your block rating, chance, and strength against that particular target to 40%/15%/12%.
?? Why is the target-based effect kind of lame by comparison? --> Because I like the idea of PLD being support, and the non-Oath version being useful to close the gap between the Shield and Sword variants, as to be a useful midground.
:: Shield Oath - Base augment - Higher damage cap, more than just due to mitigation. Base block effects increased to 33%/15%/12%. Ally targeting augmented - You may now cause the Aegis Boon effect by hitting Guard a second time while targeting an ally (a second use will not cancel Guard if targeting ally). Crit-proofing range extended to 15 yalms. Lesser cover range is extended to 8 yalms, and mitigation based on Shield Oath is applied to both you and the ally, and causes healing equal to the mitigated value, split between you and the ally proportional to current health percentage. All active mitigation or blocks, dodges, or parries, performed by your allied target during this effect will contribute to your 'Oath'.
:: Sword Oath - Base augment - Guard is no longer a channel, may only ever cost 30 TP, has no movement penalty, and its animation time is vastly shortened. Effect is however reduced, only providing a 20% block rating and 10% block chance bonus over a 2.5 second duration. Enemy targeting augmented - Instead of giving a bonus to your block chance against the specific target, it will reduce the critical strike chance of the target for 3 seconds. While the effect is active, anyone attacked by the target who blocks, dodges, or parries will cause you to generate effects as if you did so as well.


Oath bonuses in more detail (rough):
- Shield Oath will additionally cause enmity from the mitigation itself of any shield ability (Guard, Bulwark), and generate far more enmity from debuffing (Pacify/SS, Blind/Flash, Silence/SW, DoT/Frac), and will add additional damage to Shield Bash, Shield Swipe, and Shield Lob, split among nearby enemies. Shield Bash splits less damage to enemies further away from the main target, while Shield Swipe deals damage evenly. Shield Lob will consume an amount of bonus damage each time it hits a target, hitting as many as possible before running out, and will deal the remainder of the damage when there are no new yet un-hit targets remaining within range. Shield Bash can eventually deal very high damage based on 'Oath', and, as above, consumes only 90 TP on stun-proof enemies. (Still working on this.)
- Sword Oath will cause all critical strikes within a combo chain to contribute some critical strike chance to the next strike and all Auto-Attacks within the chain, stacking until a non-crit or combo-ender; can consume mana on Riot Blade and Spirits Within when over 50% MP in order to detonate Flash on the target and surrounding enemies for bonus damage (I'm not sure yet if I want this to also remove Blind); Spirits Within will apply a Magic Vulnerability debuff, affecting up to a certain cap of damage, based on SW dmg and current 'Oath'. Flash will grant you Luminous Spire, causing your attacks to count as the higher damage of either magic or physical types and to charges your weapon to deal an additional 30 potency of magic damage each attack for up to your mana cost x (offensive spell power + healing spell power + attack power / 150). (Last calculation is obviously a shot in the dark.) Sword Oath damage increase roughly equal to current, but more tactical.

Edit: I'll try to go over balancing and gameplay simulations when I get a chance.

P.S. I occasionally have thoughts (stupid daydreams) of 'Two Tanks Take On: <some 4-man dungeon>" videos that involve one or both PLD(s), and a good use of cross-class abilities (Cure, Stoneskin) on top of Aegis Boon, swaps, etc., but I haven't been able to really work cross-class abilities in as much as I'd like. I feel like the Fast Blade proc could be useful for Stoneskin and the Sword-Oath Flash, or Shield Oath (in general), and maybe being able to cast during Guard, could be a good work-in for empowering Cure, but I'm still on the fence about it all. So far I've moved some of the abilities towards increased relevance, made the Oaths not (quite) swap-and-forget, made the dps and swap components feel a lot more bursty, increased rate of fire and shield use, but I've yet to bring out the support feel of PLD as much as I'd like. I've always pictured PLD as like 40% tank, 33% support, 27% opportunistic-/supportive-/yet-somewhat-consistent-ish dps (in terms of capabilities / uniqueness / arsenal, not necessarily niche), but this just has the first (a given) and last bits.

[Skyros]

I am really looking forward to Dark Knights. I hope they have an ability like Overpower for Warrior. I would prefer some time of whirlwind sword that cleaves all targets that surround and generate enmity. That would be amazing.