Flash vs Overpower

[Iagainsti]

"ideal" XD
Wasting my "valuable" 1.5 secs it takes to pop those CDs together( who waits for animations? Press those buttons dude) Id rather save my stacks for the crit increase of 25% for 60+secs(popping Berserk refreshes, so does Vengeance) because of 2x damage than a 25% dmg increase for 20secs, which you waste most of moving, ntm hitting 6-12 mobs with OP, more crit means more chance each of those 6-12 individuals OP pings will proc a crit. That said, I don't boast saying this is "Ideal", this is my personal way I'm sharing here, where I think TP management is priority, to not waste it on unbuffed OPs. Pretty diverse game with many playstyles, the ideal method is one you've tuned to your playstyle, not really cookiecutter( unless you play zzzPLDzzz). P.s- heavy swing>maim gain bare minimum aggro, in any pug DF, some healer even pops a regen, say goodbye to your mob train.

[Credor]

You're correct, Flash is necessary for 13 of 60+ some duties, where Overpower is utilize in ALL the Duties #slowclap

LOL
When you begin playing with Flash on that 13 duties, then you end playing with Flash on all duties. Because Flash + Overpower is better than Overpower only. After changes to aggro level in 2.4 patch, Flash does same aggro like Overpower and is better to make initial aggro (I've play Pally too). So, apart from Flash on Coils, on normal dungeons like PLD, I can run into mobs and aggro all because Flash is 360 and dont need target. One Flash or both, then 2x Overpower. From this point, combo only. My mana is working, TP is saving. Without Flash WAR must use Tomahawk (TP cost like Overpower) then wait for mobs to Overpower one direction. Yes, I play that sometimes (situational depends, when mobs are spread), but also make openings with Flash, when mobs are stacked.
In my opinion, one of very good things of WAR is Overpower and Flash in available skills. This allows to play according to the situation and is not boring (sorry for Pally readers, playing PLD is a bit boring - one combo, Flash only )

[SpookyGhost]

So you're saying sitting on 5 Wrath stacks is more valuable than Unchained.

Got it.

You're wrong, but feel free to continue pretending like being wrong is a "method" if it makes you feel better about yourself.

[Credor]

Here is the ideal rotation for AOE:

Infuriate pre-pull -> Drive-by HS on one mob from one pack -> Maim on another one from another pack -> Unchained/Steel Cyclone + Veng/Thrill -> OP -> Bloodbath + Berserk -> OP -> IR + [Conv] -> OP x inf until pacified, then OP some more if 3+ things are still alive.

Few things:
- Steel Cyclone is waste of Wrath, better Unchained + Flash or two
- ToB and Conv I hold for after-Berserk; this is not necessary on beginning when Vengeance and Bloodbath is working
Vengeance has 30% mitigation, Bloodbath gives HP return (without 25% penalty and with +50% from Berserk, every OP hit for 180 potency every mob, if mobs are 10, there is 1800 potency and 25% return to WARs HP on every OP)
On my current gear, 100 potency makes over 200 damage, so every OP on 10 mobs gives 1000 HP back (without crit, Vengeance also not calculated).

Iagainsti,
Sitting on Wrath stacks is WRONG method. You can calculate, no 25% penalty from Unchained is better, than +10% chance on 50% (crit).
Wrath stacks: 10% * 50% = statistic +5% to dmg (Defiance)
Unchaied: no 25% penalty - this is +30% to dmg (Defiance)

Wrath stacks must be used, first on Unchained, if not availalble, then on Inner Beast (strongest hit from WARs, 300 potency and always without Defiance penalty). Sitting on stacks means dps loss.

[Iagainsti]

/chuckle ok guys, you win "Best Marauder 2015"; I'm wrong, you're right. #nochill

[Rbstr]

You are seriously nuts to think it's better to hold onto Infuriate's Wrath stacks than spend it on unchained (preferable) or steel cyclone. The crit buff is tiny compared to what you get from unchained.

Certainly Overpower spam with wrath increases how many crits you land. But those are all only a crit per target hit. The overall damage added from critting even an additional 50% of the time on however many enemies is smaller than unchained's bonus to all hits.
This also applies to Vengance's thorns effect.

Saving wrath for the crit+ is wasting it.

[SpookyGhost]

Few things:
- Steel Cyclone is waste of Wrath, better Unchained + Flash or two
- ToB and Conv I hold for after-Berserk; this is not necessary on beginning when Vengeance and Bloodbath is working

Steel Cyclone isn't a waste of Wrath, though I understand why it seems that way since the other use is Unchained.

Obviously, if you have the choice, Unchained is your best option available. Vengeance + BB is also way better than Thrill + Conv. However, you won't always have Unchained available, especially if trash is separated into two sets or you kill a boss fast enough that Unchained isn't back up. So, in this situation, you use SC. Usually, what I do, is either use Unchained + Veng + BB + buffs or buffs + SC + Thrill + Conv + Turn Defiance off. The latter is a pseudo Unchained, but obviously isn't as powerful due to the lack of Vengeance, however it still does similar damage due to turning off Defiance. While Zerk + Veng + BB is fine, if you're in a situation where you lack Vengeance I don't think it's worth saving Thrill and Conv til after BB wears off. Much better to use it early, turn off Defiance, and get those buffed OPs going.

[Iagainsti]

smh;

x=(100*.75)( 0.0697xCRT – 18.437)
it take roughly 12-15 crt points to increase crit% by 1, wrath increase FLAT crit hit rate by 2%, no matter how much crit you have allocated. So 10% at 5 stacks is like giving yourself 120-150 crit points(roughly the equivalent of wearing 3 extra demon armor of fending) for a 45 seconds period if you pop your CDs right(Bloodbath>Infuriate>OP>27sec BB mark>Berserk>15 sec BB mark>vengeance)

(WD*.2714745 + STR*.1006032 + (DTR-202)*.0241327 + WD*STR*.0036167 + WD*(DTR-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (potency/100)
(WD*.2714745 + STR*.1006032 + (DTR-202)*.0241327 + WD*STR*.0036167 + WD*(DTR-202)*.0022597 - 1) * (weapon_delay/3)

Punch your numbers in, do the math, and tell me whether a 1k tp burn of OP at 100%(unchained) over 20 secs is more dps/self healing than 75% flat + 25% crit hit rate over 45-60secs then hitting Unchained/SC/Inner Beast after Berserk drops/ right before(that sweet science 1 sec left of berserk mark; or after pacify drops/is peeled for unchained)

To Rbstr:, I love personal attacks on my sanity, and you look so cool doing it #youevenliftBruh? #nochill

[Rbstr]

The numbers are very clear. 5 stacks of wrath gives you a flat 10% more chance to increase damage 1.5x. That is a 5% damage increase. Unchained (the removal of a 25% decrease in damage) is a 30% increase in damage.

So yes, 20 seconds of Unchained's 30% is more than 60 seconds of Infuriated's 5%. In fact it's about twice as good.

[Credor]

Iagainsti,
these formulas are for calculation of damage for hit potency. We dont need recalculate chance for crit from percents to points and back, because we can use matematic and 50% x = 20% x + 30% x

We can calculate additional crit damage from Wrath stack only, and in this calculation base level of Crit stat or real damage does not matter.
So, 5 stacks of Wrath gives +10% to CRT. And crit gives 50% bonus to damage.
Overall average damage will be:
base_dmg + (overall_chance_for_crit [in %] * 50% of base_dmg)

overal_chance_for_crit [in %] will be sum of CRT recalculated to % and 10% from stacks Wrath

base_dmg + (CRT [%] + 10%) * 50% of base_dmg = base_dmg + CRT [%] * 50% of base_dmg + 10% * 50% of base_dmg

so, average bonus from stacks of Wrath is in part 3:
10% * 50% of base_dmg = 0.1 * 0.5 of base_dmg = 0.05 of base_dmg = 5% of base_dmg

If you play Unchained insteed, this gives you 30% of base_dmg:
for easy calculation, if you use skill with potency of 200, penalty 25% from Defiance gives real 150 potency
so when Unchained, 150 base potency (in Defiance) will be increased by 50 "bonus" potency
we can recalculate to percents: 50/150 = ~33%

Hitting Unchained later also does not make sense, because if you will have full stacks, then you can play Inner Beast, which has 300 potency and not penalty from Defiance. Full BB combo has 630 potency, with penalty from Defiance this will be 472.5 potency. Average bonus from Wrath stacks (chance on crit) = 5% from 472.5 potency = ~24 potency. You would have to play 12x BB combo with full Wrath stack to get same bonus damage like from Inner Beast. And Inner Beast is for use after 3x BB

Conclusion: sitting on Wrath stacks is not sense

SpookyGhost,
look at cooldowns:
Unchained, Vengeance, ToB, Conv 120s
Berserk, Bloodbath 90s

If I dont have Unchained ready, then dont begin another big pull. Or if have Berserk ready - can wait 30s for rest.
But if not wait and pull better in my opinion is play 1/2xFlash and use stacks for Inner Beast - this gives 100% HP return and gives 20% mitigation for 6s. Then spam OP. Defiance off when attacked by mobs is risky (lower HP, no bonus to heal).