selling coil runs and primals

[Gardes]

There's probably some people who are posting in this very forum and engaging in RMT too. A couple months ago I saw someone asking question about melding materia onto his relic. Claimed to have spent xx million gil only to find out he bought the wrong ones and then claiming it was no big deal. That raised an eyebrow with me, since I would think someone would do some research before spending that much. So I looked him up on the lodestone. Had no crafts at 50 so he couldnt be making gil off crafts. Spiritbonding to make xx million to spend it on materia doesn't really make sense since he could be spiritbonding for the materia he needs instead. Being run seller seems unlikely since iirc he had only one 50 at the time and his gear wasnt exceptional. He just seemed like someone who hasnt played very long. I showed his post and his lodestone to someone and he agreed it was suspicious too. iirc he's a regular poster too.

Just saying.

[midnightax]

I personally Don't have a problem with selling or buying runs. i do have a problem with RMT on Gil. i know if someone comes to me for a run and can dish out a few mil without having any DOH or DOL at 50, they probably bought that Gil and i just turn them down.

[ExKage]

Eh, I've done lots of run sales, mostly of T9 and a few primals. The market sort of dried up/died closer to 2.55 for us with how limited available people we had. I've also done lots of T9 helps/clears for people who I didn't ask for any gil at all. Will I sell runs in the future? Sure if I have the group for it. Will I sell to someone who is quite obvious about being a gil buyer? No. Do I suspect some buy gil? Yes, but I don't know for sure and until my suspicions are proven correct I won't act. It's not my place to. I would never look down upon mercs either, I have no place to for one. Well, those who price gouge I do. Seriously, 500k for Shiva HM, not even extreme, sounds ridiculous. I don't think even during peak Primals sales was Shiva Ex more than 1mil.

[Niasha]

I spent 750k on a titan hard clear, 3 mil on a t5 clear, and 500k on a ramuh hard clear.

I am currently scheduling my shiva hard clear, for the story mode. its looking like another 750k.

now, keep in mind, I make about 1 mil per day, just off accessory sales. these numbers are nothing.

Also, keep in mind, I cant even clear snowcloak on my own, legitimately. I had to be carried dead, through it. This is because of my 2 second action delay on any actions, due to my using remote play.

You can't clear Shiva hard mode? I'm sorry but LMAO!

[ExKage]

You can't clear Shiva hard mode? I'm sorry but LMAO!

Notice that he says he's got a 2 second delay using remote play. Mentions also not being able to clear Snowcloak, a dungeon most people will just do daily without a thought.

[Kosmos992k]

That's very ironic, coming from you. Your position were judged on what you provided. If you refuse to provide more information for your case, then you also should've kept silent in the first place. You said you kicked two people for run selling because you assume it ties with RMT. That is silly and misinformed. If you knew these guys were tied with RMT, that'd be a different situation, but that's not what you've said, and as such, don't try to pin the sin of ignorance on others.

1) the situation as described is as much information as I will give.
2) anything beyond the bare facts is confidential - as it should be since the detail is a private matter between the individual players and my Free Company
3) I did not say that they had ties to RMT, the situation was to do with run selling, not RMT. read what was written and do not push your own version of facts you do not possess.
4) The sin of ignorance is quite willfully committed when someone decides to pass judgement and comment on a situation without the full facts at their disposal.

I have a few people in my FC who engage in ERP. They know that a good portion of the FC frowns upon it, but they also know its not explicitly against our FC rules. if it were, they wouldn't. There is a big difference between "knowing how the fc feels about their conduct", and "against the fc rules explicitly".

There are 4 things that govern people's behavior in any setting;
1) written rules
2) guiding principles
3) societies tolerance
4) personal conviction (ethics)

In a Free Company or guild, the first two elements are set by the FC/Guild leadership, the third is about how the membership in general reacts to things and the 4th is the player's personal responsibility and feeling.

My Free Company has 3 written rules;
1) respect all players
2) no drama
3) no cheating (including, but not limited to modding, RMT, glitching, etc...)

We also have guiding principles that are core to the FC, such as honesty, loyalty, integrity, and in particular helping others for the sake of helping - not personal gain.

These rules and principles have existed since the guild/FC was founded (before FFXIV). The members I have referenced were not only aware of these things, but they had helped to formulate how those rules were to be interpreted and how the principles extend the rules to cover situations not explicitly written into the rules.

See the trouble with written rules is that if you did not write a rule to cover an exact situation, you cannot apply the rule, and people can always exclaim that the written rule doesn't cover what happened. On the other hand broadly framed rules and principles cover all things, they do lead to situations where the judgement of the leadership is essential.

Since removing a member from a guild/Free Company is the most final of measures that can be used, kicking a member requires care and attention. Like many guilds/FCs we only remove people after multiple situations that break/go against the rules/principles of the FC - with the sole exceptions of anything that breaks the T&C of the game, and any extreme behavior that breaks the rules or principles of the guild.

The decision we made is not up for public review, and no further information about the situation will be provided to protect the privacy of the players involved. I will make it clear though that the players had not, to my knowledge, broken the SE T&C for FFXIV, nor were they summarily dismissed from the FC - so you can be well assured that there was a great deal of discussion and consideration by the FC leadership before the decision to remove a member was made.

Whether the particular kicking was warranted or not, is off topic, however, so we should get back on topic, of discussing the Ethical ramifications of selling runs.

Quite. I will say again, since you have indicated this is a discussion of ethics, the rules and principles that govern players in my FC put run selling in a category of behavior that is unethical for members of the FC. Whether or not others agree with that ethical stance is not my concern, it is simply the way our FC views that particular matter.

Personally, my viewpoint is "if it isn't against the terms of service, or against any Written rules from your server, fc, linkshell, or otherwise, it is ethical to do whatever you enjoy doing." next person?

I think you need to add that if it is not against the laws of the country you are resident in, since many countries now have written laws governing online acts and behavior (such as stalking). Further, unless you're aware of another definition of ethics, ethics are personal. Your ethics are individual to you and may/may not differ from mine. What matters is whether our individual ethics align with the ethics of the organizations/communities/society we are part of. If our ethics are not aligned with one or more of those, we may find ourselves being excluded by whichever organization, community or society our ethics differ from.

If I have to choice between help a random player to win a primal fight/a coil turn or sell it to them, I d prefer sell it to them, because I have NO BENEFIT in help those random player but if I sell it to them, I can make some k to kk.

There is a benefit, it is simple the case that it is something you (and many others like you) do not value. That benefit is the satisfaction of helping someone, and if that player is on your server, the benefit might develop into a friendship. But hey, I guess gil is worth more than personal satisfaction, or potential friendship - to some.

[Niasha]

Notice that he says he's got a 2 second delay using remote play. Mentions also not being able to clear Snowcloak, a dungeon most people will just do daily without a thought.

You can literally be dead on the ground for an entire run and get the clear. That's what he's going to be doing anyway when he buys the run.

[ExKage]

You can literally be dead on the ground for an entire run and get the clear. That's what he's going to be doing anyway when he buys the run.

True enough. When I end up with Shiva HM and I'm a healer, I usually end up leaving people dead if that's what they end up being most of the time. Either problem with DF or he chose not to go into DF knowing he would be dead on the floor and maybe he'd get harassed for it. /shrug

[Ashkendor]

But they willingly take the dirty money...

By the same token, so does someone that lists something to the market board. They accept the risk that their money might have come from RMT. But no seriously, how are they supposed to magically know where the gil comes from?

These words do not belong in the same sentence. While I'm fairly sure there are people who have enough gil to buy a clear, it's not a "legitimate" clear in the sense that the player was carried, and in some cases had to actually turn over their account to such people to get it. That is no fun.

I don't consider a bought run to be a legitimate clear either, but that wasn't what he was talking about.

He said the player is legitimate, i.e. not someone that bought gil.

Ye mapping + story cutscene XD

Gotcha. Sorry, I was legitimately curious about your reason, I just worded my question poorly.

[Ayrie]

Kill selling, the latest crafted gear and materia prices are the 3 major markets for RMT gil. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. After all, those are the 3 primary things that actually cost any amount of gil. Given that 90% of a server population can't make that much gil from crafting or selling kills themselves, coming across players dropping 20mil, 30mil, 100mil on a kill, it's pretty clear where that gil has come from, even if I've not been told by those doing the selling, or friends of the buyer, that the gil was purchased.

Giving the bots and conscripted labor drones WAY too much credit. They do repetitive tasks for many, many iterations to make the gil, not one highly skilled one that takes months of work and practice to execute (short handed even).

Stop insulting the people that can do this. Wag the finger in the right direction.