selling coil runs and primals

[Kosmos992k]

That's very ironic, coming from you. Your position were judged on what you provided. If you refuse to provide more information for your case, then you also should've kept silent in the first place. You said you kicked two people for run selling because you assume it ties with RMT. That is silly and misinformed. If you knew these guys were tied with RMT, that'd be a different situation, but that's not what you've said, and as such, don't try to pin the sin of ignorance on others.

1) the situation as described is as much information as I will give.
2) anything beyond the bare facts is confidential - as it should be since the detail is a private matter between the individual players and my Free Company
3) I did not say that they had ties to RMT, the situation was to do with run selling, not RMT. read what was written and do not push your own version of facts you do not possess.
4) The sin of ignorance is quite willfully committed when someone decides to pass judgement and comment on a situation without the full facts at their disposal.

I have a few people in my FC who engage in ERP. They know that a good portion of the FC frowns upon it, but they also know its not explicitly against our FC rules. if it were, they wouldn't. There is a big difference between "knowing how the fc feels about their conduct", and "against the fc rules explicitly".

There are 4 things that govern people's behavior in any setting;
1) written rules
2) guiding principles
3) societies tolerance
4) personal conviction (ethics)

In a Free Company or guild, the first two elements are set by the FC/Guild leadership, the third is about how the membership in general reacts to things and the 4th is the player's personal responsibility and feeling.

My Free Company has 3 written rules;
1) respect all players
2) no drama
3) no cheating (including, but not limited to modding, RMT, glitching, etc...)

We also have guiding principles that are core to the FC, such as honesty, loyalty, integrity, and in particular helping others for the sake of helping - not personal gain.

These rules and principles have existed since the guild/FC was founded (before FFXIV). The members I have referenced were not only aware of these things, but they had helped to formulate how those rules were to be interpreted and how the principles extend the rules to cover situations not explicitly written into the rules.

See the trouble with written rules is that if you did not write a rule to cover an exact situation, you cannot apply the rule, and people can always exclaim that the written rule doesn't cover what happened. On the other hand broadly framed rules and principles cover all things, they do lead to situations where the judgement of the leadership is essential.

Since removing a member from a guild/Free Company is the most final of measures that can be used, kicking a member requires care and attention. Like many guilds/FCs we only remove people after multiple situations that break/go against the rules/principles of the FC - with the sole exceptions of anything that breaks the T&C of the game, and any extreme behavior that breaks the rules or principles of the guild.

The decision we made is not up for public review, and no further information about the situation will be provided to protect the privacy of the players involved. I will make it clear though that the players had not, to my knowledge, broken the SE T&C for FFXIV, nor were they summarily dismissed from the FC - so you can be well assured that there was a great deal of discussion and consideration by the FC leadership before the decision to remove a member was made.

Whether the particular kicking was warranted or not, is off topic, however, so we should get back on topic, of discussing the Ethical ramifications of selling runs.

Quite. I will say again, since you have indicated this is a discussion of ethics, the rules and principles that govern players in my FC put run selling in a category of behavior that is unethical for members of the FC. Whether or not others agree with that ethical stance is not my concern, it is simply the way our FC views that particular matter.

Personally, my viewpoint is "if it isn't against the terms of service, or against any Written rules from your server, fc, linkshell, or otherwise, it is ethical to do whatever you enjoy doing." next person?

I think you need to add that if it is not against the laws of the country you are resident in, since many countries now have written laws governing online acts and behavior (such as stalking). Further, unless you're aware of another definition of ethics, ethics are personal. Your ethics are individual to you and may/may not differ from mine. What matters is whether our individual ethics align with the ethics of the organizations/communities/society we are part of. If our ethics are not aligned with one or more of those, we may find ourselves being excluded by whichever organization, community or society our ethics differ from.

If I have to choice between help a random player to win a primal fight/a coil turn or sell it to them, I d prefer sell it to them, because I have NO BENEFIT in help those random player but if I sell it to them, I can make some k to kk.

There is a benefit, it is simple the case that it is something you (and many others like you) do not value. That benefit is the satisfaction of helping someone, and if that player is on your server, the benefit might develop into a friendship. But hey, I guess gil is worth more than personal satisfaction, or potential friendship - to some.