The problem with Summoners

[AreeyaJaidee]

snip snip...

Why waste your time telling people to stop suggesting ideas to SE? Get out of here with that trash mindset.

The truth is ppl play smn and love to see it fixed, they know its faults intimately. They deal with its issues and shortcomings daily if it is their main.

SE encourages us to suggest and give feedback, and the reality is a lot of the players feedback has made positive impacts on the game.

Looks like you're just here to argue for the sake of argument with nothing but a message that our input is meaningless and to just accept what we get.

I say no. If you're going to have that kind of attitude then its you who is wasting their time.

[Minorinz]

After reading this it's a simple solution. PLAY ANOTHER CLASS! Clearly summoner isn't for you. It seems pointless to shine the bright sides of this class to you so just go back to the pool of playable classes and pick something that's more tuned to your playstyle.

I agree with this.

There are things that aren't going to get handed to you because complaining is not the answer neither is idea of a whole class getting reworked. Sometimes I wonder if we are even talking about the same class/job anymore...

[Craiger]

Minorin, why do you keep replying my posts like I'm suggesting SMN should be reworked or that current abilities be buffed? I never said that... I simply spoke out about what I hope SE does with the new abilities coming in 3.0, which I'm 99.99% certain won't be shared with SCH.

To increase SMNs DPS, they don't need to do anything to the current spells that SMN share with SCH. If we put the SS aside, they can balance their DPS with new spells that make up for it. I would want them to add another DoT actually, because SMN doesn't use DoTs that are their own right now, they only use Arcanist ones. They could even change something with a trait if they wanted, cause there are nothing stopping them from changing so new traits are separate from SCH and SMN.

Also, I don't understand what you meant about skill/spell speed... They said both skill speed and spell speed will see a change, and that DoTs will be affected by them, so of course melee DPS will see an increase in DoT damage too. I don't know why you involved haste, cause it has nothing to do with it.

I'm not whining about SMN, I'm simply offering my view on how they could improve them in the expansion. I don't even play as SMN right now, so it's not that.

Some people might like SMN the way they are, but every SMN I've talked with in the game, wants big changes in 3.0... And SE gotta realize that people don't like it.

EDIT:

if it's as I explained earlier then it will boost the AOE damage because we're talking about multiple extra ticks with bane going. It's simply way too OP

Have you played BLM, or seen their AoE damage? With a pot, you can do 3 flares in a row, and trust me, SMN wouldn't even come close to that AoE damage... And that's including only 4 enemies, which is the maximum SMN can use Bane on...

One more thing i'm not 100% sure about (if someone can confirm, I tested it by dying and summoning pet-> the HP was the same) but Summoner's pet does not get affect by weakness when summoned so some of your outgoing damage which is 30-40% not affect by your death at all, can BLM beat that?

Have no idea about the weaknes, but as for BLM being able to beat that... Yes they can... Because, you will most likely need MP song when you have died as a SMN. That lowers your BRD's DPS by 20%, which he might not have needed to do otherwise. BLM gets full MP within a couple of secs and can continue doing more damage than SMN.

Also, I might be wrong, but I haven't heard anyone affording to res someone and still be fine without any MP song in Final Coil, which is what we're talking about here. If the healers need MP, then it doesn't matter, but if he has to use MP song for only you, then your group will fall further behind in DPS compared to having a BLM


Basically, to end this argument... please don't deny that SMN are under-powered right now, cause nobody else denies that. What I was talking about, was how they could fix that in the expansion, then you started talking about accepting the job as it is etc. Which there really is no point in, because of the expansion being here in 3 months.

[Minorinz]

Minorin, why do you keep replying my posts like I'm suggesting SMN should be reworked or that current abilities be buffed? I never said that... I simply spoke out about what I hope SE does with the new abilities coming in 3.0, which I'm 99.99% certain won't be shared with SCH.

this isn't about you, i'm just replying to when you started quoting me...

To increase SMNs DPS, they don't need to do anything to the current spells that SMN share with SCH. If we put the SS aside, they can balance their DPS with new spells that make up for it. I would want them to add another DoT actually, because SMN doesn't use DoTs that are their own right now, they only use Arcanist ones. They could even change something with a trait if they wanted, cause there are nothing stopping them from changing so new traits are separate from SCH and SMN.

I already see that happening as I mentioned it in my previous post. since it's SS related.

Also, I don't understand what you meant about skill/spell speed... They said both skill speed and spell speed will see a change, and that DoTs will be affected by them, so of course melee DPS will see an increase in DoT damage too. I don't know why you involved haste, cause it has nothing to do with it.

That's because like you said you didn't understand, and I can't really make it easier to understand, sadly...

I'm not whining about SMN, I'm simply offering my view on how they could improve them in the expansion. I don't even play as SMN right now, so it's not that.

Some people might like SMN the way they are, but every SMN I've talked with in the game, wants big changes in 3.0... And SE gotta realize that people don't like it.

The class was extremely popular during SCoB so nothing was wrong with it, and people don't care about the class/job, people care about powerful dps (:
Summoner started being an issue when FCoB came out, so you can't tell me that people are not pleased with class just for the sake of the class design being bad or lacking since barely anyone complained back then... this is just absolute hypocrisy.

EDIT:

Have you played BLM, or seen their AoE damage? With a pot, you can do 3 flares in a row, and trust me, SMN wouldn't even come close to that AoE damage... And that's including only 4 enemies, which is the maximum SMN can use Bane on...

I actually did, with 4 targets SMN is quite OP if CDs are saved it can easily beat a BLM, more than 4 is quite useless because flare will beat any bane. BLM is an aoe class and will be better than summoner at it so I have accepted it, but it shouldn't be better at single target too.

Have no idea about the weaknes, but as for BLM being able to beat that... Yes they can... Because, you will most likely need MP song when you have died as a SMN. That lowers your BRD's DPS by 20%, which he might not have needed to do otherwise. BLM gets full MP within a couple of secs and can continue doing more damage than SMN.

You only need few MP ticks for like 20-30 secs until aetherflow is up which will barely affect your bard's dps, and if you already have your aetherflow then you can start pulling more damage than a blm who has to go through umbral phase to get mana back before astral with it's dps hindered with 100% weakness from being res'd, unlike you with your pet.

Also, I might be wrong, but I haven't heard anyone affording to res someone and still be fine without any MP song in Final Coil, which is what we're talking about here. If the healers need MP, then it doesn't matter, but if he has to use MP song for only you, then your group will fall further behind in DPS compared to having a BLM

I've res'd a billion times in FCoB and MP is never an issue now, I even res before the healer because I simply can afford it. Also if you checked the top dps on the summoner board, you'll see notes of summoners getting their pets swapped multiple times during a fight, and that btw costs a lot of mana =D

Basically, to end this argument... please don't deny that SMN are under-powered right now, cause nobody else denies that. What I was talking about, was how they could fix that in the expansion, then you started talking about accepting the job as it is etc. Which there really is no point in, because of the expansion being here in 3 months.

I'm not denying it but i'm against reworking the summoner class and those who are whining about how it's going to be in 3.0 without giving it a chance, so I am accepting the job as it is. I hope SS will be in it's advantage more than any other class.

[Akiza]

Can you source that claim? Because i'm pretty sure 50->60 will only add 2 new abilities/spells from the job and 2 more from the class if classes are not going to get abolished. The new jobs will not have a class so the chances of getting 6 new abilities/spells is not quite possible...

According to the Order of Blue Gatr rumor mill it is likely that we will get class abilities every two levels starting @ 51 and job abilities every two starting @52 then two class and job abilities @60 for a total of 6 class abilities and 6 job abilities

[Havenae]

Honestly...

Fair enough. I don't. I'm lucky if I see one a week. My main point though is that there are people here trying to say "there's absolutely nothing wrong with smns, go play something else."

Clearly there is, it's been talked about since 2.0 launched. You don't have players complain that often for this long for there to not be a valid reason. I understand there are those players who come to the forums and 'qq' and it's really because they're just not good at that job/class. But usually when it's this prolonged of an issue, there's more to it than that.

Your most common manifestations are inadequacy versus other dps classes and summoners not 'feeling' like summoners. I personally think the class needs to be rebuilt, I don't think the playstyle is congruent with how we've been exposed to summoners in other ff games, but I realize that isn't going to happen. But I do still think measures can be made to reconnect the summon aspect of the 'job' and shift focus from essentially being an affliction warlock from WoW.

I think in the future if summoner summons played a more integral role in more aspects than just dps dps dps it would be beneficial to the class and add a preference over others. For instance if pets had more utility or some were able to play a more supportive role such as buffs, debuffs ect, and an increase in the summoners interaction on that front.

Not everything needs to be about do has the biggest baddest nukes, that's baddie wow mentality. Sometimes if you don't have the biggie nukes but you help improve someone who does, that's better. Especially if it's the whole party. I don't know how many people remember ffxi if they played it at all but consider there were jobs that weren't exactly super nukes but still greatly sought out because they offered a lot more in terms of utility and support.

When it comes to summoner, and the entities they have had the ability to summon in previous games, there is a vast repertoire of possibilities that could come to this job in its current rendition. If we only focus on the dps aspect, we'd be selling ourselves very short.

Just something to think about.

[Wintersandman]

According to the Order of Blue Gatr rumor mill it is likely that we will get class abilities every two levels starting @ 51 and job abilities every two starting @52 then two class and job abilities @60 for a total of 6 class abilities and 6 job abilities

You can almost guarantee one or two of these is going to be a new summon. So that leaves 4-5 new job abilities that will differentiate scholar and summoner. I personally wouldn't mind more dots. I love my dots.

SCH is underwhelming when it comes to dots in comparison to SMN. I know they are the same but go grind away killing things as SCH and then go do it as SMN and tell me which one is easier.

Also I laugh at anyone claiming Summoner has been abandoned. I see more SMN than BLMs. Also I have seen a good SMN/MNK combo burn down an aoe pack just as effectively as a BLM. Maybe not as quickly but it wasn't enough to scoff at.

Dot's have way more damage potential than you are giving them credit for.

[Sequora]

You can almost guarantee one or two of these is going to be a new summon. So that leaves 4-5 new job abilities that will differentiate scholar and summoner. I personally wouldn't mind more dots. I love my dots.

SCH is underwhelming when it comes to dots in comparison to SMN. I know they are the same but go grind away killing things as SCH and then go do it as SMN and tell me which one is easier.

Also I laugh at anyone claiming Summoner has been abandoned. I see more SMN than BLMs. Also I have seen a good SMN/MNK combo burn down an aoe pack just as effectively as a BLM. Maybe not as quickly but it wasn't enough to scoff at.

Dot's have way more damage potential than you are giving them credit for.

You must be on a rare unicorn server then. In the endgame scene i see VERY few SMNs. Most of the SMNs I know have changed to BLM since 2.4 and haven't looked back.

[Spellbinder]

I think in the future if summoner summons played a more integral role in more aspects than just dps dps dps it would be beneficial to the class and add a preference over others. For instance if pets had more utility or some were able to play a more supportive role such as buffs, debuffs ect, and an increase in the summoners interaction on that front.

This. All of this.

From 2.0 until maybe a patch ago (or was it 2?), summoner was "Garuda or get out." After the slight changes to Ifrit, it became (assuming a melee DPS with the proper debuffs was in the group) "Ifrit or get out."

When they add more Egis, assumedly Ramuh and Leviathan, are we just going to say "(Egi with best DPS) or get out" and let all the others collect dust on the shelf?

My argument is perhaps lost making reference to FFXI, but I enjoyed having Leviathan for Spring Water (healing/status cures), Titan for Earthen Ward (stoneskin), Garuda for Hastega (skill/spellspeed buff), and Ifrit for Crimson Howl (attack buff), just to name a few. No, I'm not saying they need to rework summoner and make us all about the pets. I have no qualms with us focusing on DoTs, although I wish they were elemental and not poisons to fit a bit more thematically.

If we're going to eventually have five Egi, with possibly more in the years to come, they should all be worth using to some benefit to the party. What if we were able to lay down our DoTs on an enemy and have the leeway to use more than one Egi in a single encounter for the utility they bring to the table?

What if Ifrit's Radiant Shield could be cast on the tank? What if Titan's Earthen Ward could be used on the whole party?

The only Job that is required to defeat the primals to progress through its job quests (which wasn't exactly fun to do when the game first released), and all we got was reskinned Carbuncles and an extra 10 potency. Sure DoTs are nice, but nobody wants to see utility brought to the Egis?

Don't even get me started on the other mechanic and pet AI problems with the job.

[HexWeaver]

Two AOE burst DPS casting classes? Doesn't give much choice to those who aren't interested in playing as a BLM, Summoner is very unique and I for one love it, It was my first class and I'll never change, I've tried playing BLM but I find it dull as hell. There's something really satisfying about watching a mob of enemies or a boss slowly melt while suffering from DOT's, in comparison I find BLM rather dull.. rotate between fire thunder and ice while getting in the odd flare where you can, it just doesn't interest me so I'm glad the two Magic DPS classes we do have are so diverse, just stick to BLM Akiza, you will not be happy until they bend the job to fit YOUR playstyle. The rest of us are HAPPY with it.