The problem with Summoners

[Minorinz]

Spell speed should fix the dps issues with summoner which is why they will nerf it eventually anyway, people need to move on from how the class/job works because it will not change. I don't know if people listened to the live letter but Yoshida said that designing a new job from scratch takes 2 years and it's a lot of work, doing this with summoner will take way longer than a year for sure so it's impossible for them to touch it while it's already being engaged in the game. Just. Move. On.

[Craiger]

Spell speed should fix the dps issues with summoner which is why they will nerf it eventually anyway, people need to move on from how the class/job works because it will not change. I don't know if people listened to the live letter but Yoshida said that designing a new job from scratch takes 2 years and it's a lot of work, doing this with summoner will take way longer than a year for sure so it's impossible for them to touch it while it's already being engaged in the game. Just. Move. On.

Huh? If the Spell Speed change fixes SMNs DPS issues, why would they nerf it later on? That would just make them weak again...

Also, while we don't know the Spell/Skill speed changes yet, I doubt it alone would take SMN to the level they need to be at.

That becomes especially true when you start to think about who else will be affected by that change... Every DPS job except BLM, relies a lot on DoT damage in their rotations (BLM one is mostly for Thundercloud proc), so even the high DPS melee jobs would see a big increase in DPS.

They don't need to completely overhaul the job like many suggesting, but they have an opportunity to change them a lot now with new abilities and traits coming in 3.0...

The new abilities could bring some more burst damage (not too much, cause there needs to be some difference between BLM and SMN), and either with that burst, or with another ability, they could make the job more interesting... They could make one or more abilities that is tied to the primals that was gonna be used with SMN, not new egis, but abilities that call upon those primals and perform an attack of some sort. The possibilities are unless.

One of the traits could fix their MP issues further (still needs some work considering BLMs advantages IMO), if that's even needed with the level increase and whatnot...

In other words, they could completely change SMN around without changing abilities that are already in the game. Might not please everyone, but I would go back to SMN in a heartbeat if they just make them balanced and a little more exciting than ruin/ruin II...

[zeroaru]

<snip>

The point is, is that it is one of the least played jobs, and that alone should tell you something. It should tell you that there are
issues that should be addressed. It shows that there is a real reason why most players will not play it. Plain and simple.

Trying to pretend there is nothing wrong with the job, when there clearly is, doesn't help anyone.

Honestly, I see way more Summoners than what people make out on the forums. I rarely go into WoD without having at least 2 or 3 in there. I come across them frequently when tanking too. Not as much as Ninjas or Dragoons or Bards but I'd say I personally see them almost as frequently as Monks or Blackmages for example.

There are things wrong with the job yes, but just because the tyres are flat doesn't mean we should replace the engine. I honestly feel like summoner is just a few steps away from being where it needs to be.

[Minorinz]

Huh? If the Spell Speed change fixes SMNs DPS issues, why would they nerf it later on? That would just make them weak again...

because that's how SE works, if it's too op then nerf'ing is the answer. It's not about making them weak, it's about strong they are.

Also, while we don't know the Spell/Skill speed changes yet, I doubt it alone would take SMN to the level they need to be at.

Wrong. Actually it should be enough, spellspeed will increase the amount of ticks you get over the duration unlike the current situation where the target is paced to tick every 3 secs, this should be considered as a potency buffer since it's too good for a dot based class. The challenge I see is how stats or itemization priority will be since DET CRIT and SS will be too good or how much SS do you need to achieve a set amount of ticks. This all will be clear by then of course, but right now the concept is clear enough for me to understand that this will be a good bonus point for summoners.

That becomes especially true when you start to think about who else will be affected by that change... Every DPS job except BLM, relies a lot on DoT damage in their rotations (BLM one is mostly for Thundercloud proc), so even the high DPS melee jobs would see a big increase in DPS.

You are forgetting the potency of the dots right? because spellspell/skillspeed will affect their ticking frequency and summoner has the highest possible outcome just because they are dot based class. Every other dps class wont reach the same outcome, I highly doubt it.

They don't need to completely overhaul the job like many suggesting, but they have an opportunity to change them a lot now with new abilities and traits coming in 3.0...

The new abilities could bring some more burst damage (not too much, cause there needs to be some difference between BLM and SMN), and either with that burst, or with another ability, they could make the job more interesting... They could make one or more abilities that is tied to the primals that was gonna be used with SMN, not new egis, but abilities that call upon those primals and perform an attack of some sort. The possibilities are unless.

One of the traits could fix their MP issues further (still needs some work considering BLMs advantages IMO), if that's even needed with the level increase and whatnot...

In other words, they could completely change SMN around without changing abilities that are already in the game. Might not please everyone, but I would go back to SMN in a heartbeat if they just make them balanced and a little more exciting than ruin/ruin II...

First off, summoner doesn't have an MP issue anymore because it is fixed, second, it's not as easy as what you are imagining it to be, minor tweaks could easily affect scholar and they will have to consider all the possibilities of what might happen if something gets adjusted. They are playing it extremely safe because Arcanist is a tricky class to change especially when it's branching into two jobs, and if i may say that the designer of the class/job is quite the genius, yet the class/job is not perfect because it's overpowered in some fights and underpowered in others. Again, changing a trait or adding up to it will lead to a chain reaction that they might not even have anticipated, so this will not happen unless the whole class is being changed, not to mention they have to do it for scholar too which is time consuming. Adjusting pet CD timers is an option but it really won't do much because the problem is within the pet itself, I think it needs better scaling with gear but this will be adjusted with expansion because stats are getting a revamp.
Again.
Just. Move. On.

[Craiger]

because that's how SE works, if it's too op then nerf'ing is the answer. It's not about making them weak, it's about strong they are.

Doubt it's going to be OP, which I will get into...

Wrong. Actually it should be enough, spellspeed will increase the amount of ticks you get over the duration unlike the current situation where the target is paced to tick every 3 secs, this should be considered as a potency buffer since it's too good for a dot based class. The challenge I see is how stats or itemization priority will be since DET CRIT and SS will be too good or how much SS do you need to achieve a set amount of ticks. This all will be clear by then of course, but right now the concept is clear enough for me to understand that this will be a good bonus point for summoners.

First off, we don't know anything at all about what Spell/skill speed will do for DoT. You're simply speculating that's going to happen... It's a big task to change that 3 sec world timer they have right now, which they might do, but you can't just expect it.

Second, if that's how it's going to work, it would affect all DoTs exactly the same amount (relative)

You are forgetting the potency of the dots right? because spellspell/skillspeed will affect their ticking frequency and summoner has the highest possible outcome just because they are dot based class. Every other dps class wont reach the same outcome, I highly doubt it.

Since SMN has the highest amount of combined DoT potency, they ofc will see the biggest increase in DPS, but from what I've calculated(someone please correct me if this is wrong), SMN has total of 135 potency per tick (3 seconds right now), and MNK has a total potency of 92 per tick... That's included MNKs increased damage buffs which you always have to take into account(not including DK since that doesn't increase it as for what I understand)

Are you really telling me that if that 135 potency ticks more often, it will suddenly balance SMNs out, even though MNKs DoTs does 70% of that damage at the same time....

Since BLMs won't really see much difference with the Spell speed change, they might catch up to BLM, but they should be ahead of BLM in single target DPS... and other jobs will get higher DPS too.

Maybe Skill speed won't do as much as Spell Speed, but they would still not be completely balanced anyways.

First off, summoner doesn't have an MP issue anymore because it is fixed, second, it's not as easy as what you are imagining it to be, minor tweaks could easily affect scholar and they will have to consider all the possibilities of what might happen if something gets adjusted. They are playing it extremely safe because Arcanist is a tricky class to change especially when it's branching into two jobs, and if i may say that the designer of the class/job is quite the genius, yet the class/job is not perfect because it's overpowered in some fights and underpowered in others. Again, changing a trait or adding up to it will lead to a chain reaction that they might not even have anticipated, so this will not happen unless the whole class is being changed, not to mention they have to do it for scholar too which is time consuming. Adjusting pet CD timers is an option but it really won't do much because the problem is within the pet itself, I think it needs better scaling with gear but this will be adjusted with expansion because stats are getting a revamp.
Again.
Just. Move. On.

Who have said they would add abilities to the arcanist class? They could just add them to the SMN job, and I highly doubt they are going to make SMN and SCH share more abilities in the future... They don't even like the class system, that's why they aren't bothering with it for the new jobs. As for traits, they could probably just change to to affect the respective jobs if they wanted too, either way that's not a big issue.

What I suggested had nothing at all to do with changing their current spells, so I don't understand why you say to move on... makes no sense

EDIT: Forgot to mention the MP thing... Yes, SMN doesn't really have an MP issue anymore, but when balancing you have to balance towards the jobs alternatives in a raid group. BLM has infinite MP, and because of that never needs MP song, and most of all, if you die, you won't have any problems... SMN on the other hand, while you can keep up your MP much better now, you still have to really manage it good, and and can't res anyone without going too low. After all, the res is the only thing SMNs have other BLM that might(usually not) be useful. Also, if SMN dies, you're done for.... Have to summon new pet with almost no MP

If the job they competed with didn't have infinite MP, SMNs would be fine, but I still think it needs some work considering that...

[zeroaru]

Wrong. Actually it should be enough, spellspeed will increase the amount of ticks you get over the duration unlike the current situation where the target is paced to tick every 3 secs

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it mentioned that we won't actually get extra ticks? I thought we were going to get a buff to the final tick of each dot applied based on what the extra equivalent damage of additional ticks would be? This meaning that it only applies to the final tick of each cast and thus means that we have to be much more careful about clipping said dots.

I could be wrong, but that's how it was explained to me in game by an FC member, makes more sense than changing the entire server wide system to accommodate for individual spell speed of each character.

[Craiger]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it mentioned that we won't actually get extra ticks? I thought we were going to get a buff to the final tick of each dot applied based on what the extra equivalent damage of additional ticks would be? This meaning that it only applies to the final tick of each cast and thus means that we have to be much more careful about clipping said dots.

I could be wrong, but that's how it was explained to me in game by an FC member, makes more sense than changing the entire server wide system to accommodate for individual spell speed of each character.

I don't think either of your theories have been mentioned. In fact, I'm pretty sure they haven't said anything about it, more than say that Skill/spell speed will see a change, and that DoTs will be affected.

It's all just speculation.

It is a big step for them to change the current world clock though like you said, and I too think it's going to be something like that... Although I would rather it just increased the damage on all ticks then, because it would just make SMN even more annoying if you have to be that certain to not clip the last tick, and it wouldn't help their burst on adds that die before the DoTs are done.

We just have to wait and see

[Minorinz]

First off, we don't know anything at all about what Spell/skill speed will do for DoT. You're simply speculating that's going to happen... It's a big task to change that 3 sec world timer they have right now, which they might do, but you can't just expect it.
Second, if that's how it's going to work, it would affect all DoTs exactly the same amount (relative)
Since SMN has the highest amount of combined DoT potency, they ofc will see the biggest increase in DPS, but from what I've calculated(someone please correct me if this is wrong), SMN has total of 135 potency per tick (3 seconds right now), and MNK has a total potency of 92 per tick... That's included MNKs increased damage buffs which you always have to take into account(not including DK since that doesn't increase it as for what I understand)
Are you really telling me that if that 135 potency ticks more often, it will suddenly balance SMNs out, even though MNKs DoTs does 70% of that damage at the same time....

yes I'm telling you that summoner's dots are going to balance it in terms of single target with BLM if it's as I explained earlier then it will boost the AOE damage because we're talking about multiple extra ticks with bane going. It's simply way too OP not to mention the pet's 20% buff with spellspeed and summoner's other damage buffs. The only thing I wish they would adjust is making bane instant with no CD and having it restricted to mobs that aren't already infected.

Since BLMs won't really see much difference with the Spell speed change, they might catch up to BLM, but they should be ahead of BLM in single target DPS... and other jobs will get higher DPS too.

Maybe Skill speed won't do as much as Spell Speed, but they would still not be completely balanced anyways.

I'm not an expert with melee but I'm thinking their skillspeed in terms of GCD makes a difference, to clairfy SE's intent with SS look at this post:

When working with buffs, they wanted to avoid the situation like if FFXI where haste was overpowered, so skill/spellspeed has been mostly insignificant in the 2.x series. They will be going through a huge change in 3.0. DoTs will be directly influenced by SS.

So how will dots be directly influenced by spellspeed without breaking the game's GCD timers? Simple, all they need to do is have dots tick quite often or have spellspeed as a stat multiplier- which I doubt.
Haste is truely OP and they said they won't implement it because haste also means merging skillspeed and spellspeed which is a no no right now.

Who have said they would add abilities to the arcanist class? They could just add them to the SMN job, and I highly doubt they are going to make SMN and SCH share more abilities in the future... They don't even like the class system, that's why they aren't bothering with it for the new jobs. As for traits, they could probably just change to to affect the respective jobs if they wanted too, either way that's not a big issue.

It's about adding/modifying the current class traits/abilities/spells all are interconnected with scholar, Job ones are not but which ability or spell are they gonna buff to make a real difference because if you haven't noticed all of those available ones are for the pet and the pet is already lacking with gear scaling. Fester shouldn't be touched, it's good as it is.

What I suggested had nothing at all to do with changing their current spells, so I don't understand why you say to move on... makes no sense

There is nothing to be done about summoner atm, final patch for the current series has been released so people really need to move on and accept the summoner class on how it is and how it will be delivered in 3.0, once we get to play the class in the expansion and go for a nice test run with spellspeed and the new abilities, the complaining about how lacking the class is can resume then. Typically, I understand the frustration because being the underpowered class is a terrible feeling but things like this you can get over when the dev team is telling you that they will do something about it in the expansion.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the MP thing... Yes, SMN doesn't really have an MP issue anymore, but when balancing you have to balance towards the jobs alternatives in a raid group. BLM has infinite MP, and because of that never needs MP song, and most of all, if you die, you won't have any problems... SMN on the other hand, while you can keep up your MP much better now, you still have to really manage it good, and and can't res anyone without going too low. After all, the res is the only thing SMNs have other BLM that might(usually not) be useful. Also, if SMN dies, you're done for.... Have to summon new pet with almost no MP

The MP cycle is perfectly reasonable and like I said they can't touch it because scholar is suffering/gaining with the same fate as we are and I don't see them complaining much about being dead and not having mana back especially when they have to res. In any normal raid, if people die and I have to res, I can afford to res 1-2 times during battle without mana issues, if i'm dead and I have to res then our bard will naturally play manasong because res'ing someone> their dps meanwhile blm is completely useless when such situation is in occurrence. Also, our bard will play manasong if I request it because I have the right to just like melee requesting paeon but I don't request it anyway foes > mana, so I manage myself somehow which works fine. One more thing i'm not 100% sure about (if someone can confirm, I tested it by dying and summoning pet-> the HP was the same) but Summoner's pet does not get affect by weakness when summoned so some of your outgoing damage which is 30-40% not affect by your death at all, can BLM beat that?

If the job they competed with didn't have infinite MP, SMNs would be fine, but I still think it needs some work considering that...

Having infinite MP as BLM is natural because of how the job works, it wouldn't make sense to have summoner constantly sucking aether to get mana back just because it's better...

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it mentioned that we won't actually get extra ticks? I thought we were going to get a buff to the final tick of each dot applied based on what the extra equivalent damage of additional ticks would be? This meaning that it only applies to the final tick of each cast and thus means that we have to be much more careful about clipping said dots.
I could be wrong, but that's how it was explained to me in game by an FC member, makes more sense than changing the entire server wide system to accommodate for individual spell speed of each character.

think about it like an auto attack except it's with dots, not sure if that explains it. Also, it's been proven that it's not server dependent it depends on the object, each has their own pace on when the tick starts but it'll always be 3 seconds so ticks frequency will be adjusted with SS, because I don't see how else will SS help.