3 Star token rotation help

[Wisdombeer]

Here is a screenshot to explain "the power of Tricks of the Trades". You cannot do this with a non-flexible rotation :



If I remember well, this was MMII + MMII + Manip.

Ok, it does not happen very often. But it is not the first time I complete a 100% HQ 3* craft with only HT's. I'm still at IQ11. What you dont see on screen is : I still have 71 CP, enough for GS + BB. I don't remember if the components were all NQ, but as I almost never NQ any 3* recipe, I dont see why I would have used any HQ mats.

[Stupiduglytaru]

i understand fully the effectiveness of goods, im fully aware of mani mmii blah blah. The situations i use WNII your fully not getting, after my first MMII having the cp to pop a WNII (whilst maintaining BB finish cp) is more effecient than any other way unless you literally are getting limitless goods.

Its all situational thats what your clearly not getting aswell, dependent on good procs and rngness being able alter your rotations for this is key with these and 3star+ nq mat only crafts

[ZephyrZ]

Anyone who got to 4 star using their own rotations and spent time learning the skills should know that MM, MM2, WN, WN2 and MANIP all have their uses and can be more efficient and CP cost effective depending on the situation.

MM vs MANIP: SH2: 1 stack left, 20D left. HT -> MM over MANIP, otherwise MANIP costs 88 + 5 = 93 cp.

WN2 vs MM2: these should be compared since they serve different purposes. MM2 is used to prolong a synth while WN2 is used as a finisher.

MM2: 9 steps at cost of 210 cp because only 3 steps were considered as cost. 50/80D left.
WN2: 138 for 7 steps at the cost of 3 steps w/ 2 SH2's left. 45/80D left.

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Both have their merits and are good depending on the situation. If you lack the CP for MMII, then a WNII finisher is more than just a viable option.

[xallever]

We understood the supposed efficiency of WN2. The problem isn't so much efficiency, rather that efficiency is only good for when you are not involved in any RNG. The problem with WN2 and efficiency argument is with the HT.

If for every single step on WN2 is a basic touch, then efficiency is the key.

However, given the non-100% nature of HT on SHII, it is usually more favorable for more chances of striking HT, which can only be reached through ToT + Manip combo. In other words, the playing field here is not efficiency.

When high or 100% HQ chance can be reached through the available CP, such as using WN, SH, BT, then yes, efficiency is key. But unless there is a fixed rotation that doesn't involve RNG for those crafts, efficiency is a 2nd priority.

[Roth_Trailfinder]

Waste Not is a very viable skill.

Waste Not II is much less so.

Waste Not at least only lasts 4 turns. So your 56 CP get you 2 more turns at a cost of 28 CP per turn.
Manipulation gets you 3 more turns. So your 88 CP gets you those 3 turns at a cost of 29.333 CP per turn. Barely more expensive, and also a bit more flexible.

Waste Not 2 lasts 8 turns. Your 98 CP, in theory, should gain you 4 turns, at a cost of 24.5 CP per turn. Right?

Wrong.

Waste Not 1/2 skills are only fully cost effective if you use Durability every single time while the buff is active. Now, thanks to the fact that 5 Durability are just as good as 10 for finishing the recipe, you can use *ONE* non-Durability move during a Waste Not 1/2 without reducing its cost effectiveness. The second one increases the cost savings by reducing the need for the reduced durability use.

Say what?

WN lasts 4 turns. SH2->WN->HTx4 is a common block, especially in 40 durability recipes, that gets you four shots of an 80% success rate 100% efficiency Touch and lowers Durability by a grand total of 20 points (0 loss->0 loss->5 loss->5 loss->5 loss->5 loss).
If you get a single Good in there and pop Tricks rather than the HT, you get (though the ToT can be anywhere after the WN) SH2->WN->HTx3->ToT at a cost of only 15 Durability. The extra 5 Durability not used are just as good as a full 10 Durability chunk, effectively granting you that fourth HT (or some other durability using move) even though WN has worn off.

WN2 lasts 8 turns. SH2->WN2-> gives you 8 moves before the buff fades. No problem, using SH2 again as the fifth move will save the 5 Durability just like the ToT in the WN just did above. And, as far as that goes, you'd be right.

But, that completely ignores the ToT procs you will want to use. SH2->WN2->HTx4->SH2->ToT->HTx2 eats 30 Durability. That means that you only gained 3 turns from the WN2, not 4. Those 3 turns cost you 32.666 CP each. If you get more than just the one ToT proc, that will reduce the effectiveness even further, and over 8 turns, you can very well get several ToT procs.

At 32.666 CP per turn, WN2 is less effective than MM1 or MM2.

So lets look at the gains, shall we? I've seen, at most, 3 Good conditions in any period of 8 turns. Good->Normal can only repeat itself 3 times from what I've seen, before it goes into at least 2 Normal conditions back to back.
SH2->WN2->ToT->HT->ToT->HT->ToT->SH2->HTx2. That WN2 cost you 98 CP, cost you 20 Durability and only gave you 2 extra turns. You gained 60 CP back, but spent 25 of them on SH2, for a real return of only 35. 98 spent - 35 back = 63 spent. 63 spent on 2 turns is 31.5 CP per turn ... if you want to look at it that way. In actuality, it cost you 49 CP per turn, and gave you 35 CP back, to play with later.

WN2 is only good if your plan is to ignore Good conditions. Otherwise, it is the least effective Durability Games move there is.

[Wisdombeer]

I prepared a rotation that is using a WNII finisher. But I am not convinced it is even possible to use it. Here it is :



And here is my personal rotation from my guide :



Yes, the WNII finisher leads to a 12 HT's rotation instead of 11. That's clearly an advantage. I made a WNII rotation that needs the exact same amount of TOTT, 5. It does require 6 additional base CP, 394 (can be reached, but with good melding). The big drawback is : you need 5 TOTT proc under 13 steps. That's not going to happen. My usual rotation needs 5 TOTT proc under 20+ steps, which is quite common.

And in fact, if you get 5 TOTT procs under 13 steps, there is a HIGH chance they will come under SHII. If so, you need an additional SHII, so in fact 7 TOTT proc under 13 steps. No, clearly, I wont bet on this...

(hope my Excel WNII rotation has no mistakes, did not test it IG)

[Stupiduglytaru]

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxPY...p=docslist_api

Didnt have much time last night to build a full set of rotations however have 2 comparisons of MM II vs. WNII + WNI with 0 good procs on both so far, will transfer this to google sheets tonight and will start comparing with random good conditons added

Both rotations with 0 goods had a 8 ht touches

just working on good conditons during wn phases now

[ZephyrZ]

Snip

The sheer amount of wasted cp makes me sad. Don't even know what to say about those rotations.

[Wisdombeer]

The sheer amount of wasted cp makes me sad.

The sheer amount of arguments in your post makes me sad.

I would be glad to improve my rotations based on your advices. But I cannot do so without a bit more information. Can you provide a better rotation ?

[ZephyrZ]

The sheer amount of arguments in your post makes me sad.

I would be glad to improve my rotations based on your advices. But I cannot do so without a bit more information. Can you provide a better rotation ?

I gave you a hint, that should be more than enough if you want to improve.