Pro tip: Tell me you're new to a dungeon /rant

[TouchandFeel]

@Alexion

Not at all, at least I'm not. Nobody should impose their will on the rest of the group, no matter the role. How things are done should be up to and fit to the needs and capabilities of the group.

What we were arguing is that NyarukoW said how and how not large pulls should be done, and myself and others felt that what was said was very much wrong.

Edit: some people might have said something along those lines farther back in the thread, but for the most part it seems most feel that people should communicate more, both the new players and the vets.

[LineageRazor]

Are you guys really argumenting for the right to IMPOSE speed runs on people?

Pretty sure, no, that's not what anyone's arguing. I'd say even the pro-speed-run folks are pretty much just saying, "Yeah, we gonna speedrun unless someone asks us not to." Not much of an imposition, if they stop when you ask them to. :x

It's actually you and NyarukoW that are doing the imposing here. Both of you have admitted to assassinating your own party members if they don't play the way YOU want them to. Who's doing the imposing, now?

[Ashkendor]

Are you guys really argumenting for the right to IMPOSE speed runs on people?

Anytime anything relating to new people in dungeons is brought up in a thread, a couple of people in particular tend to come in and make a big stink about how OMG SPEED RUNS ARE WRONG and then it turns into this mess.

Basically: if you're new, step up and say you're new. A lot of us appreciate that. If you run into any douchebags that ragequit or get on your case for being new, you're probably better off without them anyway. Everyone was new once and I for one don't have a problem helping new people get first clears on anything from low level dungeons to final coil. I really wish people would stop acting like newbies are automatically bad players that want to be babied through the content, though. That newbie could be a 15 year MMO veteran that's just new to XIV.

[NyarukoW]

... pretty much just saying, "Yeah, we gonna speedrun unless someone asks us not to." Not much of an imposition, if they stop when you ask them to. :x...

This where it is wrong. The default is wrong. People need to ask if the everyone is on board to speed run. Only when you get unanimous yes without silent votes, then it is green light to speed run. As much as I believe people need to communicate, you have to account for the case of communication failure, as in silent response, non-response, etc. Granted that you don't have a troll that says yes just to troll you and really mean no and wipe you. But you can not impose the responsibility of response to the other side, that would be simply irresponsible. Especially new/newer players who don't know how to respond, what to respond, or even aware of the concept or understand the question. It is irresponsible and imposing too much to believe that you communicated successfully your message when you do not have a response to affirm that.

.... I just want players who are unfamiliar and new with the dungeon to speak up so that I can explain mechanics of the bosses if need it be and at the same time slow down the pace of the dungeon so that they can take in the information at a good pace rather than have it be all jumbled up and them running around like a headless chicken. It's better to say so earlier when asked than to do so later after doing something you weren't meant to do so that we can avoid any conflicts within the party.

Just got ahead and explain it and until they tell you they know it already. If they get rude and tell you to blankety-blank you just report them to the GM for harassment. OR you are feeling lazy, don't explain anything. And if they are new, they will wipe after which they will ask for explanation and be more receptive. In either case you can not assume you have a speed run and you can try and likely wipe for sure. You need unanimous affirmative response in agreement to speed run on the DF, or you are gambling and hoping to get lucky.

And you yet contradict yourself! By the words of NyarukoW.. Behold!

BTW there is no contradiction. People need to communicate, and part of communicating is how to handle communication with the non-communicative. The silent speed runner that runs off without a word before protect is one kind of problem, and the other is the new/newer players who don't know how to communicate. Speed runners actually read these forums to it should be obvious to them that it is foolish to assume they can speed run on the DF by default. But it is silly to expect the new/newer players who don't respond to know and read the forums and be able to communicate better. Nonetheless, the solution for both is actually really simple, do not assume to speed run on the DF. Do not equate silence non-response to equal agreement to speed run. If some one wants to speed run, do make the effort to get the "yes" response from everyone in the party.

Sigh ... are quite tangential to what I was saying and twisted to fit ...

They are not tangential it is about NOT assuming everything will go just right and perfect and be ready to to handle any and all contingencies.

We get it, you felt you got slighted by someone wanting to speed run in WP a long time ago when you were newish to the game. ...

It is not some chip and most DF runs don't have issues. The silent speed runner needs to get a wake up call to know that they can't get their way and I will use their corpse on the ground to get that message across because they deliberately do not know how to communicate in any other ways. Otherwise I'd just reinterate that you can NOT assume to speed run on the DF, and you can NOT assume that silent responses means it is ok to speed run, and you can not impose on other players to let you know they can not speed run.

.. how OMG SPEED RUNS ARE WRONG and then it turns into this mess.
..

The speed run itself was never the problem, it is the attitude and the non-communication or failed communication in the case of the OP for this thread that is the problem. If the OP would simply ask for unaminamous "yes" to speed run in his macro, aside from trolls he would never get the case where a new/newer player is wiping his speed run.

It is a mess because you get people who are obstinate and believe they can impose and insist that the new/newer players are obligated to respond in the exact way they want. Which clearly doesn't work as evidenced by this thread. You can't change the other people but you can be the change you want. So fix the OP can fix the question in the macro to avoid this kind of communication error.

It is this same approach that people need to take into DF and be ready for all contingencies.

-------------------

... Otherwise, you better believe I'm keeping my tail ahead of them so that I take as little damage as possible until I get to the point that I'm stopping at. That way, all of the mobs are secure enough that the healer can drop an emergency heal if necessary, but regen is a terrible idea while I'm still pulling. ...

The problem is the speed runner will not have communicated that intent, nor will they have communicated where they will stop. More often than not they will have ran way out of healing range and behind a corner even where the emergency heal isn't going to reach. So I regen once they made contact and they better do some aggro generation before going for the next group.

They'll run right over to the healer and eat their face.

Exactly, the sign of lousy tank. But since I anticipated that crap, I've already got regen and medical 2 and stoneskin on everyone and along with E4E on the tank all applied and I'll holy spam the mobs around me and self heal if needed. The holy should stun the mobs to give the tank time to get aggro back. It is the tank job to keep aggro off the group including the healer and better put that aggro generation to work.

[AlexionSkylark]

assassinating your own party members if they don't play the way YOU want them to

Now, now... If someone WILLINGLY pulls a mob to hold himself hostage and the tank simply doesn't save his arse, how can this be qualified as assassination?
At MOST this is suicide on the part of the guy who pulled...

[Ashkendor]

The problem is the speed runner will not have communicated that intent, nor will they have communicated where they will stop. More often than not they will have ran way out of healing range and behind a corner even where the emergency heal isn't going to reach. So I regen once they made contact and they better do some aggro generation before going for the next group.

The problem isn't establishing hate. Even a single Flash or Overpower is enough to keep the mobs off the WHM. The problem is that any mob that you might miss (which can happen due to positioning), and I usually pick them up after the fact with Tomahawk/shield lob, but if they've already high-tailed it to the white mage, they're probably out of range for that. The time to cast regen would be once the tank has all the mobs in a neat pile for AoE destruction.

Exactly, the sign of lousy tank. But since I anticipated that crap, I've already got regen and medical 2 and stoneskin on everyone and along with E4E on the tank all applied and I'll holy spam the mobs around me and self heal if needed. The holy should stun the mobs to give the tank time to get aggro back. It is the tank job to keep aggro off the group including the healer and better put that aggro generation to work.

Regen and Medica II during a pull?? Sorry to say that that's not lousy tanking getting you hit, it's you shooting yourself in the foot. I click Regen and Medica II off of myself if I see them when I start a pull, because that's an enormous hatebomb heading right toward your white mage before the tank can even pick up the mobs. Most WHMs I run with know better than to do that, unless they're completely new to the class. Clearly you detest speed runs if you go out of your way to sabotage them that way. :x

[NyarukoW]

... The time to cast regen would be once the tank has all the mobs in a neat pile for AoE destruction.

By that time the tank is dead. Been there done that, and they start complaining about where is the heals. Too many of them don't use cooldowns or heck their own cooldowns were not ready, yep I've seen that plenty too.

...
Regen and Medica II during a pull?? ...

If the tank took the time to explain when and where they are going pull to, then I can get iin position and be ready to regen and medica 2 at that time. But the silent speed runner never bothers to explain. I try to say close to the tank the the whole time, but sometimes the tank even runs backwards before I've even done a single thing, so I E4E as soon as the tank makes contact and then regen medica 2 are the first 2 things I cast once I see the tank start taking damage because I do not know when the crazy fool is going to be behind a corner, forgot his cooldowns or screw up in any other ways. And in any case, I'd rather have him have to slow down and come back and get mob that is running towards me and I will holy spam the mobs. If the speed runner tank is not communicating, he is already on his way to being a lousy tank.

[Donarudo]

You might be the only tank in all of Eorzea who is willing to wait 5 seconds for buffs. As a healer it drives me absolutely batty when the tank runs off without SS and Adlo, and I have literally never had one wait for the past few patches =/. They just don't understand how much wiggle room a little bit of prevention gives me...

I to do the same. I wait for buffs, check gear...and ask if people want a SR or regular run. People say they are fine with whatever. If we wipe I tone it down.

[Novaura]

The message at the beginning does not tell me that there are multiple new people.

If you do not tell me you're new; expect a speed run and understand that I expect you to understand the dungeon.

Thanks for your confession. It's people like you that have made life a nightmare when going into a dungeon for the first time for me and everyone else who is forced to deal with your ignorance. If a message that appears clear as day is not enough to make you show a first timer how the dungeon works, then you become the party's public enemy #1 and it is your own fault, not ours.

[nuyu11]

Thanks for your confession. It's people like you that have made life a nightmare when going into a dungeon for the first time for me and everyone else who is forced to deal with your ignorance. If a message that appears clear as day is not enough to make you show a first timer how the dungeon works, then you become the party's public enemy #1 and it is your own fault, not ours.

If there is a message that says someone is new, why bother asking? You know at that point someone is new, so go slower for them. It doesn't matter which one it is, as for alts, well most people won't bother with alts since we are able to be every class. If they aren't new and the server says they are, start slow and if they ask to go faster, then do so.

Agreed, I'm always give player commendation to Tank and Healer because they have patience with me and I'm will do the same later to other newbie.