Pro tip: Tell me you're new to a dungeon /rant

[TouchandFeel]

Do NOT run ahead of the packs, slow down, do not run so fast, shield lob, tomahawk and bring the mobs to the group. Spend the time to secure the agro before moving ahead and pulling more and expanding the pull. It is a tank not a kite, you do not want a string of them behind you that you can lose aggro any time and make the healers do heal tanking. If healer do not regen, E4E, adlo, etc. the tank will be dead by the time they get to that 9th mob. Do your aggro generation wait for the healer to catch up to your position and do NOT run all over the place like a chicken without its head. NO single player sets the pace, the group has to move together as one.

That is absolutely not how mass-pulls work and if they were done that way, the tank is wasting time and health.

1) The tank will always be a little ahead, not a large amount, but a little. They will be ahead because they started running first. Stopping and waiting for your group to be completely caught up before continuing with your pull is more detrimental than finishing your pull, popping a CD and grouping/positioning the mobs nicely for the group. Stopping intermittently could just end up causing confusion as to whether you are done pulling as well is it allows all the mobs to catch up to you and hit you which means more damage to the tank.
2) The tank shouldn't have to move the mobs to the group, the tank should pick the best spot to tackle the group of mobs and stack the mobs there. Both the tank AND the group should be moving to that spot. Forcing the tank to backtrack doesn't help anybody and can just lead to screw ups.
3) It IS a kite. That is where the term "kiting" comes from and that is exactly what a tank does when mass pulling, they kite the mobs to the spot where the group will engage them. The tank runs forward, not sprint since that could cause problems, and tags mobs with lob/tom and keeps running until they have all the groups for the pull. By agroing on the run like that you create a mob train in which only a small few are able to follow close enough to really get hits on you, making it so you have more health when the mobs are actually fully engaged by the group.
4) A healer should never have to and just really never should cast something like regen during a pull, its pretty much like strapping a ticking agro time bomb to yourself in that situation. If the tank is tagging and kiting properly, then a single preemptive damage shield type spell should get them through the initial pull and to where the party engages the mobs.
5) Yes, no single player sets the pace for the entire group, this is one thing that I will agree on, but that also goes for egotistical and vindicative healers as well.

[NyarukoW]

What the OP wants is for people to speak up if they are unfamiliar or just new to the dungeon so that he can decide the best course of action. ...

As nice as it would be, that is just silly to expect it to happen See:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...60#post2829060

You can't even expect the new/newer players to read this forum, watch youtube, or any other forums. You can't expect them to speak up. When they don't even know they could or should speak up. And you definitely cannot take their silence as agreement to speed run.

Single best post from this thread to demonstrate why you can not and should not misinterpret silence:

Is it ok if we have sex?

If you don't respond, I assume you mean yes. You forfeited your right to complain. Fact is, silence does NOT mean "yes"

[NyarukoW]

... the tank is wasting time and health.

Wiping the whole party over and over is wasting everyone's time and health. It is for the sake of efficiency and successful completion without wipe that you make the necessary sacrifice of the speed runner tank when you must.

1) The tank will always be a little ahead, not a large amount, but a little.

The problem is they are usually clear across the room out of healing range and even behind a corner sometimes. Too many times I've seen them pay no attention to the positioning of anyone else and just run all over the place. WAR are especially bad on this compared to PLDs, because likely many PLDs have had the WHM experience are are more considerate as result.

2) The tank shouldn't have to move the mobs to the group, the tank should pick the best spot to tackle the group of mobs and stack the mobs there.

Well then the tank should mark that spot. Use the marking tool in game. Awesome speed runner could surely use the location markers right? Have it macro-ed right? But not once in all the runs have I ever seen a marker used to communicate that. Never on the DF. The rest of the group can not be mind readers as to where the tank wants to be. If nothing else take the time to explain/command the group to go a spot the tank wants at the very least, but you can't possibly expect them all to understand 100% of the time.

3) It IS a kite.

Leave the kiting to BRD kite tanking out of desperation please. A tank is a tank. A tank is meant to take hits and take lots of it. Stop kiting and do the role and take the hits. The healers will heal it all.

4) A healer should never have to and just really never should cast something like regen during a pull,

The pull never stops, you need to cast regen at somepoint. The tank has aggro generation tools, so use it. And use the cooldowns too while they are at it. The regen is for everyone and the tank and helps provide more HP to take hits, and help improve survivability when the tank forgets to use aggro generation tools and the mobs is going after the BRD, BLM when they forget or got quelling on cooldown, or when the tank does not provoke that one loose mob they missed, or when a DRG steal aggro on a mob. Just like DOTS, regens should have near 100% uptime and applied all the time so then the healer can switch to cleric stance and DPS. The good tanks that speed run never have a problem with me spamming regen and medica 2, it helps them keep the their cooldowns ready for when it is really needed and appreciate the healer DPS.

...but that also goes for egotistical and vindicative healers as well.

Resorting to the name calling eh? I never claimed to set the pace, unlike some speed runner who insist that every DF is a speed run. See the difference. I will put them in their place with the corpse on the ground if that is what it takes and don't test me because I've done it everytime they tried.

That is absolutely not how mass-pulls work and if they were done that way...

If you don't like it, use the PF to build your speed running party and run it the way you insist. There is more than one way to do things, but on the DF, I need to assume the worst and take precautions to avoid and prevent the party wipes. Wasting another 60 seconds, mp and hp is acceptable loss if overall efficiency is still good. I just want the DF to go smoothly and efficiently without assuming unncessary risks, especially those risks from misunderstandings, lost commnunications etc. You are not trying to break the new world record for speed running brayflox HM or the latest expert roulette or something.

BTW I have PLD and when I pull mobs, I do exactly as I say here. I pull a set to the group secure aggro, then move and get the next group, gauge how the party handles it and then make a judgement call usually erroring on the side of safety as to pulling any more, and at this point you are usually at the half-pull mark and with a good efficiency boost with no risk of wipe. You don't want to have pulled 12 mobs and watch them run after everyone going everywhere, especially when you got BLMs and BRDs that don't know how to control their aggro with quelling strike.

[TouchandFeel]

Sigh ... You obviously did not get what I was saying at all since your retorts are quite tangential to what I was saying and twisted to fit into your quite biased viewpoint, then again I am not surprised.

You truly have blinded yourself with your own self-righteousness.

We get it, you felt you got slighted by someone wanting to speed run in WP a long time ago when you were newish to the game. That has made you have a chip on your shoulder. Honestly, you need to just get over it and let it go. You'll probably enjoy the game and the people you meet a lot more if you are not so angry and up-in-arms all the time.

[AdamFyi]

Snip

I'm sure nobody wants to be babysat or spoonfed, thank you very much. The question is, "Are you new to this dungeon?"

If a player can't even answer that simple question, then are they a vegetable? You give new players less credit than what they deserve. They can speak for themselves. They're not as stupid as you are implying. I'm being serious here. All it takes is to speak up - communicate - the entire point of a multiplayer game.

This is not a single-player game where you ride unicorns with rocket launchers installed into their horns and rocket boosters on their hooves while you snipe rainbow coloured sheep from atop your sky balloon ship that poops glitter on auto-pilot. Players have the choice to say 'yes', 'no' or nothing at all (which leaves the group to decide for you). Silence is not golden in that case and it is your own fault for not speaking up.

Sigh ... You obviously did not get what I was saying at all since your retorts are quite tangtial to what I was saying and twisted to fit into your quite biased viewpoint, then again I am not surprised.

You truly have blinded yourself with your own self-righteousness.

We get it, you felt you got slighted by someone wanting to speed run in WP a long time ago when you were newish to the game. That has made you have a chip on your shoulder. Honestly, you need to just get over it and let it go. You'll probably enjoy the game and the people you meet a lot more if you are not so angry and up-in-arms all the time.

Welcome to the world of NyarukoW, where your opinion is wrong all the time! :I

[NyarukoW]

...I'm sure nobody wants to be babysat or spoonfed, thank you very much. The question is, "Are you new to this dungeon?"

If a player can't even answer that simple question, then are they a vegetable?...

The could be the vegetable that needs to be spoon-fed but it is highly unlikely. And people need to communicate, but you can't force them to communicate. And I've never seen a single speedrunner ever ask using the auto-translater whether it is ok to speed run. So taking the conservative approach, you would not gamble on risking wiping the party on the off chance you got a troll or a spoon-fed vegetable because you wanted to speed run when they were not responding. If they don't respond absolutely do not assume they are ok with a speed run.

[AdamFyi]

And people need to communicate, but you can't force them to communicate.

And you yet contradict yourself! By the words of NyarukoW.. Behold!

Bottom line, people need to communicate.

[Ashkendor]

Im sure you have a healer. Play it sometimes to see what the cast time on stoneskin or aoe stoneskin is. Or the fact that you cant use the later in combat. Or you know, that when you move when they are casting you should probably stop moving instead of letting it hit after you aggro mobs.

It is called cooldowns. People switch from crafting gathering class when DF queue pops. It takes about 30 seconds for those cooldowns to be ready for things like protect and stoneskin.

You realize the post was facetious, right? If I see hear someone casting of course I stop, but there's a point of no return where I'm going to be aggroed no matter what. If the healer is chatting in party or just plain standing there, what are we waiting for? As far as just having switched from a crafting/gathering class, that's pretty obvious when we come into the dungeon because of HP/MP bars needing to fill up. No, I don't have a problem sitting there waiting for cooldowns. I do have a problem with people standing around between pulls and only starting to cast once I start to run. In any case, the post was completely absurd. I make jokes sometimes! The humanity!

snip

Do you realize how much extra damage I'd take playing red light green light like that? Mobs get an overpower or a flash as I run past, and a tomahawk or shield lob if I notice one hasn't turned red. Otherwise, you better believe I'm keeping my tail ahead of them so that I take as little damage as possible until I get to the point that I'm stopping at. That way, all of the mobs are secure enough that the healer can drop an emergency heal if necessary, but regen is a terrible idea while I'm still pulling. Those mobs that haven't turned red yet (i.e. they were out of flash/overpower range but are aggroed on me due to the "facepull") won't follow me and enable me to tag them with shield lob or tomahawk. They'll run right over to the healer and eat their face.

Excuse me if I don't take speedrunning advice seriously when it comes from someone that seems to categorically detest speed runs to the point that they'll simply let the tank die rather than actually participate in one.

Welcome to the world of NyarukoW, where your opinion is wrong all the time! :I

That sounds about right, yep. :x

[AlexionSkylark]

Are you guys really argumenting for the right to IMPOSE speed runs on people?

[AdamFyi]

Are you guys really argumenting for the right to IMPOSE speed runs on people?

They are not.. I think. I just want players who are unfamiliar and new with the dungeon to speak up so that I can explain mechanics of the bosses if need it be and at the same time slow down the pace of the dungeon so that they can take in the information at a good pace rather than have it be all jumbled up and them running around like a headless chicken. It's better to say so earlier when asked than to do so later after doing something you weren't meant to do so that we can avoid any conflicts within the party.