Pro tip: Tell me you're new to a dungeon /rant

[Ghishlain]

Now that you're done editing your post, let's begin~

...I have known some helpful raiders, but fact remains when people post asking for groups to join they are met with silence or useless directions to wild goose chases instead of straight offers for tryouts to joint their groups.

I won't disagree that some remarks from certain forum posters lack in tact, though for the most part the advise is sound. Get exposure and/or try to begin your own group. They advise as such because that's what worked for them and unfortunately they cannot offer anything else because their groups are already set. It's challenging work, I won't lie. As a raid leader myself, we can't always accommodate everyone. I've recently had to replace a melee and it's taken me close to six weeks to find a replacement who was (1) capable and (2) able to meet our tight scheduling requirements.

Overall, I do believe you need to consider the fact that some players are just not raid capable, regardless of their desires.

I also cleared stated on multiple occasions that the connection between clear sellers and RMTs are murky because we lack the information, but you would have to be naive to deny that they absolutely have zero connection. It is a far cry form saying all clear sellers are RMTs, but the actions of clear sellers invariablely directly or indirectly intentional or otherwise help motivate RMT. This you can not deny because people need gil to buy clears and RMTs need a demand for gil.

I have nothing more to say here. You've basically reiterated (in your own words) some of the comments I put forward in that thread from so long ago.

Accidental early pulls happen, the process by which people identify the early puller require careful observation. But it because increasing obvious when it is same troll griefing others at the hunts. This is a simple signal to noise problems. All it takes is time put in to identify them and no jump to conclusions. And it have been done successfully on more than one occasion to get the corpse of the early puller to be dropped on the ground. All it takes is coordination on the LSes and shouts in the zone to hold fire and the let the A rank kill the fool and not res them.

Again, nothing more to say here, you've basically just softened that once hard edge about early pullers and at least sound more reasonable in your comments now.

People can withdraw on PF, but the repeated withdraws in the era before the penalty was clearly a product of DF fishers. In the time since the penalty has been put in place the the withdraws have dropped dramatically. You don't encounter 15 withdraws in 5 minutes just to get into CT, ST or WoD or any other instance for that matter. This is indisputable fact. It you who choose misinterpret such simple fact as the withdraws are all abusive fishers, when in fact it only takes a handful of abusive fishers to cause constant withdraws for everyone else.

Um, you were the one making broad sweeping accusations that all people who drop from DF are fishers, and that people shouldn't even bother to queue for DF if they weren't committed to wait there for the duration of their queue (regardless of how long it was) without interruption. If an emergency pulled someone away during their twenty minute DPS queue, that they were abusing the queue they were part of.

So, no, I didn't misinterpret your comments.

With that being said, I don't disagree that with the implementation of the penalty. As intended, there has been a significant decrease in withdrawals

Except the speed runner is not happy but he will get thru this and not at a bad pace either just not full speed run speed, but it will prevent party wipes and people will clear and often I get 2 commendations in this case.

I think you missed the point of this particular example and the fact it was clearly in your favour and a very clear cut example of your method doing it's job (even if I disagree with the implementation).

The aggro will go with the speed running DPS that pulled them. The healer and the other DPS can do what they want but if the party wipes because of the responsibility clearly falls on the speed running DPS. The tank is not obligated to grab the stuff. If the healer is the speed runner that pulls, then it forces my hand where I will have to grab aggro and then I will die first and the aggro will go invariably to the healer and party wipes. There is a limit to what how many hits a tank can take, and I don't grab what I can not handle. This happened quite often when I was learning to tank when I had level synced DPS or healer too impatient and went off and grabbed stuff and invariably wiped the party. They even vote kicked me only to get me back joined in progress and reporting them to the GM for vote kick abuse and harassment. I've not seen this recent months in expert roulette because it seems the healers are more sane and the dps that pull stuff are left to die on their own. And it is obvious when speed runners try to abuse the tanks, and healers usually got the tanks back when the tank is not the speed runner.

Looks as I've state before. If the everyone else in group is happy to speed run, I am not going to disrupt the speed run for giggles. I do not have infinite time either to waste making problems. Sure in this case I can't tell if the new/newer player is really ok to speed run or not, but if the tank and healer are obviously handling it fine and new player seems to going with flow of things just fine, while I may not do the max DPS but it will certainly be more than adequate and I don't have to worry about a thing. What would be there to protest about? It is not like I can not observe the situation.

However if the new player is having trouble and it would also be obvious to see that, I'd first tell the tank to slow down, and if the tank refuses and they don't say any while refusing then I will withold DPS so they have to slow down. This is not harassment in way. This is doing my best to help the group work better. It doesn't matter if they are friends and/or from the same FC because if their friend is being lost, getting clobbered, etc. They are overwhelming their friend. Heaven forbid their friend is the healer because there it no saving the wipe when the healer is overwhelmed.

My examples #2 and #3 were intentionally left ambiguous as a way to indicate to you that your thought process cannot account for every possible single variable and situation that can happen. I've provided situations where your "flow-chart of speed run halting" can go wrong.

While you can show yourself situations where you stopped a bad run from going worse, I can show an equal amount of situations where at first glance looks terrible, but work out perfectly fine.

My point being, no situation is black and white. Having a set parameter on how you operate leads to bad decisions being made. Though based on the comments you have made recently, at least you have finally admitted you're not as stubbornly cold heated as you seem to be.

==============================

Overall, I can respect this post more than pretty much anything else you've posted on this forum that I've read to date.

Keep it up, and over time you may find people taking a less negative stance towards you.

[Naliee]

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Dequoy]

Hi everyone, I'm a new player to FFXIV. I have been playing for about two weeks and it's really fun so far. There's so much to do! I just wanted to just leave my opinion on the discussion since it seems that new players are the basis of some arguments. First off I'd like to share my thoughts on the following:
Silence in response to "Is anyone new?"
I am a shy person and my quiet behavior was reinforced by most of my leveling experience as I played the game. Also I have been flamed and kicked in runs just because I said I was new. I usually do not speak in chat unless someone specifically addresses me because of this. I always thought that the notice "there is a new player to the dungeon in the party" was enough to express my presence without singling me out.
What do you mean by "quiet behavior was reinforced by most of my leveling experience"
Players generally do not talk much in FFXIV. Almost all the way to level 50 I had no meaningful conversation with other players. Most of the time I was simply ignored when I tried to ask higher level players for help (used the global language function). I would have to spend a good amount of time occasionally to find guides on location points rather than ask someone to point it out. I ignored random friend requests as I leveled. I had an unfortunate experience early on in which I got mail spammed by a gil selling bot that I accepted a friend request from thinking it may have been another new player who wanted to party. Also I may be an odd person but I find it weird to get a friend request out of nowhere from someone I do not know and have never spoken with. Ignoring silent free company requests also came from this reasoning. Although I was flattered, I did not want to be tossed into a group that was completely alien to me and may not care whether I was there or not within an hour or so.
Dungeon/Raid experience, it says I'm new because I am
I generally do not look up a guide until I have experienced a run firsthand because it takes a lot of the enjoyment away for me if I watch someone else run through it first. I usually catch onto mechanics quickly but if I’m not confident I’ll be okay I will ask before the run. I do pay attention to the chat even if I do not like to talk much. If I make a mistake with mechanics and someone explains what to do I will try to correct myself. I would just like that explanation to exclude flaming.
My default dungeon pacing mentality
In regards to speedruns. I do not mind doing a speedrun if a majority of the party is capable of doing so (even if my gear cannot handle it very well). I will stick behind the tank and do my best to dps whatever enemies he/she pulls aggro on. This is because I get to learn firsthand how a speedrun of said dungeon is done so that I'll know how to do it if I come back to it later (hopefully better geared than before).
So what's my point?
I am uncomfortable responding to "Is anyone new?" whether I am or not because of conditioning and bad experiences with backlash. I prefer to speedrun in order to learn how stronger players may run the dungeon and can use that as reference (and tone it down in future parties that may not be as strong). Whether it is in my defense or not, I would find NyarukoW's methods of impeding a run obnoxious. Even if I am not strong enough to handle a speedrun, I would still learn how a speedrun is usually done on that dungeon if I just follow the tank. I have learned through mistakes that knowing when a tank going to just pull a mob to another position or stop and hold aggro is important because I can accidentally create more work for the tank or healer by dpsing too early and pulling aggro onto my much squishier self (very sorry healers); so it helps in the future if I know what the tank is going to do.
Basically my mentality is "show me the hardest and I can take the easiest" while the reverse can quickly make an inexperienced player fall behind.

[LunaHoshino]

One reason a lot of veteran players ask who is new is so that we know what KIND of advice to give about boss mechanics, as there are often things that are specific to tanks, healers, and DPS. For instance, for Amdapor Keep, there are specific locations that are best for tanking the first and third bosses. If the tank says that they're the one who is new, I'll point out those spots so that they know where to take the boss. Cutter's Cry is another good example: the healer kites the adds on Myrmidon Princess. Knowing which job in the group is the newbie helps the person giving explanations know what they need to focus on explaining.

[Violyre]

No, I am not psychic. No, I don't assume that because you have good gear that you know how to play. No, the lack of message at the beginning does not tell me how damn bad a player you are.

No, I have to fear telling people I am new, else risk getting kicked out of the party by speedrunners and uptight pricks.

If you tell me you're good; expect me to go at my own damn pace and in the end, if you can solo the dungeon with your methods, go right ahead.

Now, tell me that you're new and I'll probably still get to the boss and ask if everyone knows the fight because I never trust anyone to know anything.

[Viridiana]

Condensed because original post was 4x too long

Welcome to the game! And the forum! As a note, the way to bypass the 1,000 character limit is to just edit your post. Cut your post, write something like "edit incoming," and then edit and paste the original post back in. If it weren't such an easy workaround, even more people would be up in arms about this silly character limit. >_>

That said, sorry you've had jerks kicking you out of groups just for being new. While I haven't experienced it myself, I hate that we have players like that in the community.

[Dequoy]

That's a good point LunaHoshino and it's nice that there are supportive players like you. On the flip-side, players that have flamed/kicked me for being new did so before the run had even started just because I was new. It wasn't even because I was performing poorly or failed to communicate that I was having trouble.
That is why if I cannot interpret if someone means well, I learn "monkey see monkey do" style which seems to work just fine outside of boss mechanics that are relevant to the entire party and wouldn't be overlooked in an explanation if players did not know it's the Dragoon whom is new.

Edit: Thanks Viridiana I had no idea you could do that. xD

[NyarukoW]

...
Even if I am not strong enough to handle a speedrun, I would still learn how a speedrun is usually done on that dungeon if I just follow the tank. I have learned through mistakes that knowing when a tank going to just pull a mob to another position or stop and hold aggro is important because I can accidentally create more work for the tank or healer by dpsing too early and pulling aggro onto my much squishier self (very sorry healers);

DPS has it easy at learning these dungeons. The speedrun is extremely stressful on new tanks and healers and is cause of wipes. When I was new healer fresh level 50 SCH with iLevel47 gear being forced into speed runs of WP some 9 months ago, it was wipe city over and over. The same happened when I was leveling a PLD. It is better to learn to crawl first before you walk. And learn to walk first before you run.

[Noxifer]

Like Dequoy mentioned, the question 'anyone new?' to some people is a no-win situation.

Situation 1:

Q: Anyone new?/Who's new?
A: Me.
*at least one person drops out, if they haven't already at the 'bonus' message*

Situation 2:

Q: Anyone new?/Who's new?
A: .....
*insert shrugging and running as 'normal', mistakes happen due to mechanics, causing a wipe or a near-wipe*
Q: WTF why didn't you say you were new?

(Yes, intentionally worst-case scenarios, but both types have happened to me, as well as the scenarios where things actually go fine regardless if you say you're new or not. Even *gasp!* some tower runs where alliance chat has been friendly and supportive!)