Pro tip: Tell me you're new to a dungeon /rant

[cain8602]

I know this is a discussions for tanks, but let me play Devil's Advocate here. What if the Tank is new, and they say nothing? Is it on them?

I know what was already said about assuming, but I went through an AK HM run a little while ago. Tank was geared enough, though a bit sluggish. First boss, he tanked near statues and didn't hide when he got targeted. Naturally, we wiped.

Because of the aforementioned tank stigma, I assumed he was a troll and left. The possibility that he was new didn't occur to me until after.

In short, I agree with the sentiment that people need to speak up if they're new.

[NyarukoW]

... What if the Tank is new, and they say nothing? Is it on them?

Expecting new people to speak up is unreasonable and unrealistic. Try a new tank in sastasha on a PS3/4 without a keyboard. They may not even know how to chat in the text chat box.

In short, I agree with the sentiment that people need to speak up if they're new.

I advise all the newer players in the FC to announce that they are new on the DF, but you can't assume that all new player will do that. And people you meet on the DF, you need to assume that they can be possibly anything even be AFK bots or trolls and handle them accordingly, what you can not assume is that you will have a smooth speed run without everyone in agreement in the affirmative form.

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So, the healer admits to deliberately sabotaging the run to prove a point ...

The healer is not sabotaging the run, the big pull needs big DPS or the whole party is going to wipe. The tank is the necessary sacrifice, because if the tank is still up, then they will speed into the next room/boss/pull and wipe everyone there when the healer has no MP. Been there done that enough times to know it is better to give the tank firm shake and wake them up to be more sensible.

...By the time you've reached level 50, even if you've gotten there without a keyboard by then you've most likely created a few macros to help communicate with other players - including admitting you're new and asking for explanations if you need them....

More nonsensical assumptions. Many players doing FCOB don't know how to use macros, and so they just require people to be on mumble and TS and just simply call out stuff. New fresh 50s, good luck if they know that they can make macros. You'll probably have to explain to them how to put together a macro.

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BTW the speed run itself is not the problem. The problem is the speed runner. The assumptions that the speed runner makes is just plain wrong and the evidence is plain obvious from all the wipes it has caused and continue to cause. In addition the speed runners will verbally abuse the new players and force 1st-timers to skip cutscenes and that is just not the best way to do things. There is no shame in going slower or at least taking, heck 10 minutes (massive exaggeration, more like 60 secs) to communicate if you must.

[LineageRazor]

The healer is not sabotaging the run, the big pull needs big DPS or the whole party is going to wipe. The tank is the necessary sacrifice, because if the tank is still up, then they will speed into the next room/boss/pull and wipe everyone there when the healer has no MP. Been there done that enough times to know it is better to give the tank firm shake and wake them up to be more sensible.

I'm not even remotely suggesting that wipes happen because the healer is doing it on purpose - I'm suggesting that YOU cause wipes becuase YOU are causing them on purpose. You admitted to explicitly that in your own post, which I quoted. You are timing things to deliberately kill the tank. YOU are breaking the run, not the tank, because you feel the tank needs to be "taught a lesson".

I have never had a healer deliberately try to kill me to prove a point - or if they have tried, they have failed so badly that I did not even notice the attempt. This is your own personal quirk, and thankfully the vast majority of healers are better than that. I'd imagine that many healers who would ordinarily side with you against speedruns are shaking their heads, thinking, "No, NyarukoW, please just stop talking and making us look like jerks!"

BTW the speed run itself is not the problem. The problem is the speed runner. The assumptions that the speed runner makes is just plain wrong and the evidence is plain obvious from all the wipes it has caused and continue to cause. In addition the speed runners will verbally abuse the new players and force 1st-timers to skip cutscenes and that is just not the best way to do things. There is no shame in going slower or at least taking, heck 10 minutes (massive exaggeration, more like 60 secs) to communicate if you must.

I've never seen these rampant wipes you're so sure are bound to happen, even when I speedrun with newbies or folks with less than top-notch gear. As I said: Players in this game are BETTER than you give them credit for. They can adapt and succeed, even when you push the envelope.

I have also never witnessed a tank browbeat players for wiping to a speedrun, on the occasions when I've played as healer or DPS. Tanks, just like all players, are mostly good people, in spite of what cynics would have you believe.

You say there is no shame in going slower. This is true. There is also no shame in trying a speedrun, then wiping, then taking things easy from then on (though on the rare occasion that this happens to me, the healer usually speaks up and encourages me to try again - that they've GOT this, this time, and I don't need to slow down for their benefit).

[NyarukoW]

...I have also never witnessed a tank browbeat players for wiping to a speedrun....

Now we know you are either really lucky or you are flat out forgetting or misrepresenting the facts. I still remember the first time I tried to heal WP and I was still figuring out my SCH, when WP speedruns were all the rage way back when for myths and I got in there on like ilevel47 gear (which was crap but I thought was so great). I told them I was new, and they said it was easy stuff. Needless to say it was a wipe not of my own doing when all the mobs came after me and killed me immediately on the first pull. The tank started to cuss me out followed by the DPS. They vote kicked me and I rejoined in progress to the same group and then the tank left. We got a replacement tank and he put those dps in their place telling them people are new and how everyone was new once and you can not expect to speed run everything. We cleared with basic pulls and not at world record time but we cleared, and now I am trying to pay that forward.

The pressure is on the tank to make the party feel happy. .... But if the tank doesn't pull a lot of mobs, the DPS don't complain to the healer. They don't votekick the healer. They votekick the tank.

Seriously, you want me to believe this load of baloney. When the pull kills the tank and wipes the party they will start cussing at the healer. And they won't vote kick either the tank or the healer because the DPS knows they will be stuck waiting often for a good long while. And if they vote kick the tank, I am out of there with tank ASAP. Tank and healer have fast queues, the DPS don't got jack over us for vote kicks, heck we'd join right back in progress to lecture the DPS if I am so inclined sometimes. I remember doing exactly that when I was learning to tank on my GLA in Cutter's cry some 9 months ago because I didn't know how to speed run and skip those mobs after the second boss. Needless to say the DPS had to shut up and put up with it. a.k.a deal with it, and I reported all their verbal harassment to the GM with their choice cussing and all. I just hope they got their penalty. And I know the same speed runners harass new WHM to kite the adds at the princess and for a new player they do not know how to do that or do it well.

For one lucky smooth speed run every now and then, the speed runners sure cause a lot problems and a lot of unnecesary collateral damage.

... There is also no shame in trying a speedrun, then wiping, then taking things easy from then on ...

This is a viable alternative provided that it doesn't end up with verbal abuse. But too often immediately after the wipe the finger pointing start and the bashing of the noob starts. So when I heal if I can nip the speed run at the bud, I will choose to let the tank get nailed while the party does not wipe and the mobs are dead. This sets the tone to either communicate and/or be more cautious and/or go slower.

[Kaze3434]

Expecting new people to speak up is unreasonable and unrealistic. Try a new tank in sastasha on a PS3/4 without a keyboard. They may not even know how to chat in the text chat box.

except this point was "fixed" in that people are forced to learn how to use the chat box via quest.