@dev team ->> Thanks for bringing back party grinding, -really-

[Ichi]

Actually, the big difference is that in FFXI you're standing in one single spot for possibly two, three, or four hours without really moving at all, unless you're the puller, in which case you still only get to move like fifteen feet out from the party's camp, and you're just fighting the exact same mob over and over again ad nauseum. Plus, there's no storyline to experience while you're grinding away in an EXP party in FFXI.

FFXI has a great storyline, but the problem is that it's a totally separate activity from the level grind. In WoW, the storyline is combined into the level grind (which is actually how the offline FF games work as well), which makes the whole experience far more enjoyable.

And no, partying doesn't build community. Maybe on a few occasions it can help, but most of the parties I've been in people rarely speak at all, except perhaps to fire off their skillchain macros and such. But other than that, an EXP party in FFXI is usually dead silent; no communication at all. How can you possibly say that encourages community? How can there be community without communication?

I started playing FFXI at the NA PS2 release, and I continued to play the game for nearly seven years after that, and from what I saw it was Linkshells that formed the backbone of FFXI's community, not EXP parties.

I don't really think those chain of quests with scrolling text lines of some anecdotal fictional experience about the npc constitute a storyline or lore at least not of the scale that FF fans expect.

Personally I feel the same about the quests currently in the game. The leves aren't so bad because you only have to read them once. Seems to me that most people never read any of that stuff and I'm sure it's their choice not to but those same 'lazy' people will watch a cutscene or read the 50 quest for their class (if there was one).

My point is storyline and lore should occur at significant moments where the player is engaged. I really don't feel like i'm learning anything about the world in these little insignificant quests, even when i read it's just not a significant moment, like a raid or an end-game quest, or a significant main story-line happening in Eorzea.

[Coors]

I agree completely with the OP. I really missed the ability to have a traditional grind party. Before 1.18 everyone did the same leves over and over and over and if you didn't have all or most of them you didn't get invited. Now I just wish there were more grinding spots. Seems like ~R20 everyone takes skeles and 1-2 other spots. Around ~R40 everyone takes raptors. In between there are a few I am sure but there aren't enough to handle a sudden influx of players trying to grind out levels.

[Biggs]

Its starting to feel more like a game.

Now keep working on improving the classic camp and pull party setup.

And please delete/kill/eradicate the leve system, and the WoW quests, and the instanced dungeon crap.

Kthx.

I am not sure why you seem to think we can't have all of those things at the same time. I am glad to have gridning back, but I don't always want to do it to level. I like the occasional solo leve. And leveling my BLK from 42-43 by doing side quests and putting the sp gain towards a crafting class is an awsome alternative to just doing the same old local leves. Variety is the spice of life dude.

[captainpicard]

Guild Leves are not like WoW style questing at all, and your claim that they are only proves that you never truly understood how either Guild Leves or WoW style quests actually work.

WoW quests are different from Guild Leves in that each WoW quest sends you off to new and unique areas, has you fight different mobs, you get quests from a variety of NPCs, and most importantly, you're not forced to repeat the exact same eight quests over and over again once every 36 hours. All these things are present in FFXIV's Guild Leves, however, and they serve to make FFXIV's Guild Leve system highly inferior to WoW style questing.

However, you are correct in saying that the more recent Side-Quest system where we get quests from NPCs is like WoW style questing, but it's a half-assed, bastardized version of it. I'm sure the Side-Quests SE adds in the future will be better, but the ones we got so far have felt very shallow compared to similar offerings in WoW.

Yes, a lot of people have left FFXIV, but I guarantee you it's not because FFXIV had WoW style questing, because it didn't until just a few short months ago. The REAL reason so many people left the game is because FFXIV lacked engaging and interesting content, had copy-pasted terrain, had a clunky battle system and a horrible interface. THAT'S what caused people to leave.

I have played the quest driven MMOs. You are correct that stones are not npc's, and wow quest lines do take you through a some what linear path (this is really bad in AOC and AION) through all the different zones leading up to the end game content. However, its still an endless string of kill 8 of this and bring me 10 of that, and help grandma poopy pants clean up her garden. In the end, they are the same, one you strip them down and look at them for what they really are. A mostly solo grind.

I do not require a NPC to get me to go adventure and explore a world, nor do I need a reward to do so.

What I do need is a group of people to go do it with and have fun with.

As far as your commentary about why people left, I can sum it up since I played through all of it.

Party play at the outset was a zerg with no strategy and unpredictable experience points. The only way to really progress effectively in a grind style party was to do it with 24 ppl or whatever the limit was, its been so long ago now I have forgotten. Once they stablized exp, those grind parties died, because partying at that point was NOT EFFECTIVE for leveling up. That left leve's, which you know where I am at with, and much of the community (as seen in this thread) agrees.

People left because of a lack of a "Fun" way to group together and party.

[darkstarpoet1]

I have played the quest driven MMOs. You are correct that stones are not npc's, and wow quest lines do take you through a some what linear path (this is really bad in AOC and AION) through all the different zones leading up to the end game content. However, its still an endless string of kill 8 of this and bring me 10 of that, and help grandma poopy pants clean up her garden. In the end, they are the same, one you strip them down and look at them for what they really are. A mostly solo grind.

I do not require a NPC to get me to go adventure and explore a world, nor do I need a reward to do so.

What I do need is a group of people to go do it with and have fun with.

As far as your commentary about why people left, I can sum it up since I played through all of it.

Party play at the outset was a zerg with no strategy and unpredictable experience points. The only way to really progress effectively in a grind style party was to do it with 24 ppl or whatever the limit was, its been so long ago now I have forgotten. Once they stablized exp, those grind parties died, because partying at that point was NOT EFFECTIVE for leveling up. That left leve's, which you know where I am at with, and much of the community (as seen in this thread) agrees.

People left because of a lack of a "Fun" way to group together and party.

you are wrong. parties have ALWAYS been an effective way to level up. you are fooling yourself to believe otherwise. you add things saying zerg style 24 man parties were the norm when you know as well as i do that parties were NEVER allowed 24 people to start with nor was max party size EVER the most effective way to level up. parties since the sp patch back in november people have always had grind parties. groups of 3-6 have always been the best sp. i hate to break it to you, but it is true.

sure you could get good sp off doing leves, but that is only a few hours every 36. people still grinded in between leve parties and worked on their other classes. not to mention you talk about grouping and doing leves is not any different than it is doing the same boring pull and camp of mobs. if anything, the leves were more exciting.

if the majority of mmo gamers felt grinding by pull and spank camping was the most fun route then xi would have been the most popular the entire time it was out. the truth is that it is not the case and that is why it never happened. many people believe many different things is fun to them.

am i saying your way is wrong? no, not at all because you enjoy what you enjoy, but you must realize that other people enjoy other things also. to ignore them is just leading down a path of failure. to have success you must find the things everyone enjoys and find ways to please each group. to me it would be best if i had 10 different ways to level so that if i got bored with one i could do something else. doing any one thing gets boring whether it be quests, grinding, soloing, raids, or leves. no one way should ever be made the only effective way to do anything.

[captainpicard]

As long as killing a mob gives XP, grinding is always an option, no matter how many quests the game wants to throw at you. And whether you grind alone or in a group is completely up to you.

There was no moment in the development of XIV where you couldn't just party up and go grind. There were definitely times where it wasn't the most efficient play, but you could do it for fun nontheless.

People who genuinely prefer mindless mob-grinding for hours always have that option. Providing quests for the other players who don't want to grind takes nothing away from the grind fans.

Not providing alternative content to grinding however leaves the people who are bored of grind in the cold.

Human's take the path of least resistance. If playing in a group is less beneficial then playing alone, people will play alone thus, your comment that grinding in a group is always an option is not really true, if you can't find a PUG willing to group because they can succeed more effectively alone.

This is a MMO, not a single player game......

[captainpicard]

you are wrong. parties have ALWAYS been an effective way to level up. you are fooling yourself to believe otherwise. you add things saying zerg style 24 man parties were the norm when you know as well as i do that parties were NEVER allowed 24 people to start with nor was max party size EVER the most effective way to level up. parties since the sp patch back in november people have always had grind parties. groups of 3-6 have always been the best sp. i hate to break it to you, but it is true.

sure you could get good sp off doing leves, but that is only a few hours every 36. people still grinded in between leve parties and worked on their other classes. not to mention you talk about grouping and doing leves is not any different than it is doing the same boring pull and camp of mobs. if anything, the leves were more exciting.

if the majority of mmo gamers felt grinding by pull and spank camping was the most fun route then xi would have been the most popular the entire time it was out. the truth is that it is not the case and that is why it never happened. many people believe many different things is fun to them.

am i saying your way is wrong? no, not at all because you enjoy what you enjoy, but you must realize that other people enjoy other things also. to ignore them is just leading down a path of failure. to have success you must find the things everyone enjoys and find ways to please each group. to me it would be best if i had 10 different ways to level so that if i got bored with one i could do something else. doing any one thing gets boring whether it be quests, grinding, soloing, raids, or leves. no one way should ever be made the only effective way to do anything.

I must beg to differ. When this game came out, experience points were very, very random. I spent weeks testing the waters of partying, and the clear winner for SP/hr gains was to build the maximum sized party (which I clearly state I do not recall in my previous post) and fight very difficult mobs, while an army of mages spammed AOE cures. That was how it was done. I built plenty of 6 man's during that era, and they were very much less effective than the zerg parties. The problem with the zerg party was a zerg is simply not fun.

When they stabilized SP gain, the zerg parties died out. At that point, grouping in 6 group parties was still very ineffective compared to running leve-links, so to say that "people have been partying all along" is a half-truth. Have people played together, yeah. Outside of leve-linking was that the efficient way to level up? No.

Anyone who has used the recruit / search party features in the game from release to now, would be aware that there has been an ongoing severe lack of PUG partying, period.

[odette]

Human's take the path of least resistance. If playing in a group is less beneficial then playing alone, people will play alone thus, your comment that grinding in a group is always an option is not really true, if you can't find a PUG willing to group because they can succeed more effectively alone.

This is a MMO, not a single player game......

i dont know why people think mmo is only grind???
grind is not effort is boring
i prefer outher metodes for skill up that kill same mob 1000 000 in parties without reward
quest could be good, and this quest you need required pt is good option

[Murugan]

Point: If an MMO does not constantly promote grouping in all aspects then the community dies

Exactly this is all that needs to be said on the topic frankly. Add sidequests, add other activities, but remember to constantly promote grouping. FFXI was popular for this reason.

[darkstarpoet1]

I must beg to differ. When this game came out, experience points were very, very random. I spent weeks testing the waters of partying, and the clear winner for SP/hr gains was to build the maximum sized party (which I clearly state I do not recall in my previous post) and fight very difficult mobs, while an army of mages spammed AOE cures. That was how it was done. I built plenty of 6 man's during that era, and they were very much less effective than the zerg parties. The problem with the zerg party was a zerg is simply not fun.

When they stabilized SP gain, the zerg parties died out. At that point, grouping in 6 group parties was still very ineffective compared to running leve-links, so to say that "people have been partying all along" is a half-truth. Have people played together, yeah. Outside of leve-linking was that the efficient way to level up? No.

Anyone who has used the recruit / search party features in the game from release to now, would be aware that there has been an ongoing severe lack of PUG partying, period.

i must beg to differ. when the game came out crab and eft parties were ongoing all the time. i know because i was in many many of them. after sp changes were made to leves, yes, people started running leves in groups. i do not deny that, but i do deny that grinding in a party was ineffective afterwards. you could get 20k per hour easily grinding on mobs in game(many mobs and rank ranges were above that).

if you get 4 hour leve party you get 100k sp give or take a few sp, but that is your entire sp per 36 hours.
grinding you could get 20k+ an hour for the entire 36. you could technically get 720k in that 36 hour span.

if somehow 720k is not greater than 100k then something is wrong.

sorry, but group grinding was always an option. group leve parties was simply an extension of them. we had plenty of times we ran our leve party and then went group grinding afterwards so to say it did not ever happen in game it a complete falsehood.

i don't use the group up search feature, but that's not to say that unless i am either farming mats or grinding crafts i am always in a party. group grinding before this last update you take 4 people to do raptors and get an easy 24k an hour. i don't know how much more it'd take for you to consider it as an effective way to level since you could grind any time of any day.

you also must take into account the amount of parties you see now is alot lower because there's only a handful of people left compared to what we had when it was first released. less people = less parties no matter how you try to justify it.