Massive fail by Matsui - telling melee range to suck it up for not getting invites

[Murugan]

If you look back, I've acknowledged several times that it's not only possible, but several people have done it. My problem was with the other poster saying that any idiot could do it, without having ever done it herself.

I get so sick of the insulting tone of so many posts on these boards. People's immediate reflex seems to be to just to insult everyone else, without regard to what's appropriate or even true.

Thanks. That's a great example of exactly what I'm talking about.

In fact, if you look at my prior posts, you'll see that I'm not being lazy, I'm not blaming good encounter mechanics, and I've tried coming up with solutions. You'll also see that I'm loving the dungeons, loving the game, and don't want the mechanics changed.

But hey, you might get socially ostracized if every post doesn't call someone else stupid or lazy. So by all means, carry on.

You don't find it ironic that this is the post I was responding to, on this page.

And you know any idiot can do it from experience? I mean, you've done it, and it's easy, right?

No, wait. Your highest melee class is r39. So you're just trying to be insulting. Ok then.

"duuuurrrr" seems like the right thing to say here.

Why don't you take your own advice, and maybe people won't take offense to your posts (which apparently are not meant to be derisive in some kind of broad context taking into account your entire post history). For the record it was the "durrrrrr" that set me off, why would you ever say that to another person? Why would you say or type that period, it's cringe worthy.

Also Felis wasn't referring to me but the person you had quoted. They are right "any idiot can do it", it's not that hard and its better to tell people that than propagate the notion that the dungeon promotes class imbalance due to the existence of an AOE (a standard encounter mechanic).

[VydarrTyr]

For the record it was the "durrrrrr" that set me off, why would you ever say that to another person? Why would you say or type that period, it's cringe worthy.

If you read the quote to which I was responding, you'll see where I got it. I put it in my message for the same reason.

The person to whom I was responding used "durrrrrr" to describe melee players who are having trouble with avoiding AoE. I put it into my response because I thought it was incredibly annoying, and if Misha used it to describe melee players who can't beat the Ogre, then it applies to her as well.

Also Felis wasn't referring to me but the person you had quoted.

Then Felis was wrong. Here's the Lodestone page for the person I quoted. Her Pug isn't 50. It's 26.

Felis was referring to you. You've got r50 Pug, and Misha doesn't. It's in your sig, and not Misha's. The only reasonable explanation is that Felis thought I was responding to you, simply because you were responding to me.

Why don't you take your own advice, and maybe people won't take offense to your posts (which apparently are not meant to be derisive in some kind of broad context taking into account your entire post history).

To whom was my post insulting? Only to people who say that anyone who can't do something is an idiot, and yet aren't capable of doing it themselves.

If you took offense to it, then your offense came from misreading my post. My post said nothing about battle mechanics or AoE. It said nothing about whether it can be done. It said nothing about whether you can do it. It just said that her post is insulting, and she's basically insulting herself.

I'm not asking you to read everything I've ever posted. I'm just suggesting that you should respond to what I've actually said. And maybe tone down the "lazy and stupid" insults.

They are right "any idiot can do it", it's not that hard and its better to tell people that than propagate the notion that the dungeon promotes class imbalance due to the existence of an AOE (a standard encounter mechanic).

**EDIT ** I may have misread your post with my initial response. If you're saying you need to speak up so that people don't think the mechanics are imbalanced, then fine. But that's got nothing to do with what I actually said. So calling me lazy doesn't achieve your goal of fighting the idea of class imbalance.

[Neptune]

I said it on page 1 already but my post got deleted...Neptune is trying to get EVERY possible way of getting his MP costs being reduced at least tried out.

He gives a *** about meeles and them being excluded from the R50 dnugeon, he just uses them as another "argument" for his MP cost to be reduced, which he tried like over nine thousand times already.

Why assume everyone is so selfish? Why would you assume I don't care about other players getting excluded? What is going on right now is ridiculous. I log on, my group farms Batraal, and we practically throw away axes that drop since nobody has Marauder up. It's completely unfair for 4/5ths of melee to be so looked down upon. I've been looked down on in FFXI for trying to do my thing so I know what it feels like to have the community turn against you.. because of the initiative of the battle planner.

im sorry but it's the community's fault melee aren't invited. people are typically cowards and opportunists who'd rather take the easy road.

it's partially the community's fault but that's not the whole story. look upstream.

As for melee range to suck it up, the patch 1.18a notes just blew Neptune's mis-translation out of the water. Neptune, I know you're hurt over the new patch, but you're close to hysterical; you're overthinking. Calm yourself; take a break if you need to, and come back to the game and forums with a fresh mind. It can be hard to adapt, and I don't blame you for that; we're only human. As far as I can see, Matsui never failed or told us to suck it up, no matter how you interpret it, or, importantly, the rest of the community views it.

So Neptune, go do some meditation, yoga, or something to relax yourself. Even R-rated stuff that help you unwind, do it. Then, when you feel fully refreshed, come back with an open mind. I liked the you that had new and good ideas for how the game should proceed, but recently, you've turned to grumbling. Please, Neptune, turn back. What's done is done; SE can reach a compromise, but if you continue acting as you are, most likely, they'll turn a blind eye. Perhaps sit back and make a list of new stuff you want this game to have, innovative things that can help foster better content or community appeal. You have it in you, I'm sure, and to spend all that potential on topics such as these is such a waste.

Take a break, from the forums and the game. You'll feel better for it, and return to us with a brighter attitude and mind to blow us out with your usual standard of topics and posts.

Thanks for this post. I genuinely appreciate your remarks.

I summed up the translation by Reinheart in the headline with the actual translation in the OP and the English official translation came not far behind it. Anyway, all it says in the patch notes is what Matsui said he was going to do.. buff melees - which I already pointed out is an inadequate response. I mean it's great that they got buffs but a buff can't change this situation because it's nested too far down in the hierarchy of causes for this issue. It will only lead to more successful runs of groups that were willing to take melee in the first place, and the GLA/CON/ARC groups will keep right on trucking. That's the whole reason I made this thread, to get a response from Matsui that is actually going to change things for the better.

I feel you though.. the forums have been getting on my nerves, but I'm really not as cynical as I may appear to be. I still have a lot of good ideas and things I'd like to post about, but did you notice the string of "busy, we'll look into it" responses? I'm focusing on posting about things that they are busy working on - not things they're too busy to work on. That's what these forums are for after all. I don't believe grumbling is a good way to look at the threads I've posted. What the dev team wants to know is how people feel about changes, anger, frustration, surprise, disappointment included. Negative emotions are still valuable feedback. A complete patch can avoid negativity by being well designed. I appreciate you being so constructive, but I really don't think this is a great time for me to be posting imaginative suggestions when they are so focused on practical matters. There are a lot of active dev tags about issues that could really make or break this game right now. You'll see my apparent attitude change after that, if I'm still playing.

Try to take a look at this thread as something more than complaining - it's about human behavior and how online games are evolving as the relationship between dev team and players becomes clearer - distilled into an opinion about one single issue negatively affecting other players.

[MeowyWowie]

Why assume everyone is so selfish? Why would you assume I don't care about other players getting excluded? What is going on right now is ridiculous. I log on, my group farms Batraal, and we practically throw away axes that drop since nobody has Marauder up. It's completely unfair for 4/5ths of melee to be so looked down upon. I've been looked down on in FFXI for trying to do my thing so I know what it feels like to have the community turn against you.. because of the initiative of the battle planner.

I'd have to agree with Tirion on this.

My first impression from reading the OP was you just trying to blame Matsui's MP cost changes for the "problem" we're seeing now. You clearly emphasized ridiculous MP cost hikes as being the root cause of the problem. So to me, it seems that your OP is just another plea for SE to lower MP costs and nothing more.

Fact is, the dungeon is easily completed with just about any setup. It's just common sense that it's easier and arguably quicker with a CON/ARC setup. Regardless of what classes we bring with us, MP management is never an issue, for either boss. I will however agree that ARC is still completely OP, dealing far more damage that any other class while at the same time mitigating all possible damage simply by being out of range. The problem lies with class balancing, not content design and not MP cost adjustments.

The only thing you might not be able to do with a random party setup is getting the 5th chest. This will hopefully change with patch 1.18a later today.

[whoopeeragon]

Thanks for this post. I genuinely appreciate your remarks.

I summed up the translation by Reinheart in the headline with the actual translation in the OP and the English official translation came not far behind it. Anyway, all it says in the patch notes is what Matsui said he was going to do.. buff melees - which I already pointed out is an inadequate response. I mean it's great that they got buffs but a buff can't change this situation because it's nested too far down in the hierarchy of causes for this issue. It will only lead to more successful runs of groups that were willing to take melee in the first place, and the GLA/CON/ARC groups will keep right on trucking. That's the whole reason I made this thread, to get a response from Matsui that is actually going to change things for the better.

Hmm...perhaps it depends on how you look at it. From my perspectives, I see it as a way that WILL change it for the better, because the other classes get buffed. You say that's it's not much of a changer, but in terms of DPS, it will vastly anchor the other melee classes to the same level of Gladiator and Archer. It's a step in the right direction; it may not do the job perfectly, but it's getting there. Right now, I think that, instead of calling out Matsui, we should actually provide more feedback. You may disagree, but if you view it as a step in the right direction, it would be better.

I feel you though.. the forums have been getting on my nerves, but I'm really not as cynical as I may appear to be.

Yea, I've had my share of forums getting aggravating. -looks at my previous post raging against archer lovers-. But if we didn't rage once in awhile, we would have been made out of stone.

I still have a lot of good ideas and things I'd like to post about, but did you notice the string of "busy, we'll look into it" responses? I'm focusing on posting about things that they are busy working on - not things they're too busy to work on.

I actually didn't notice them. o.o -makes a mental note to dig through your topics and posts-

That's what these forums are for after all. I don't believe grumbling is a good way to look at the threads I've posted. What the dev team wants to know is how people feel about changes, anger, frustration, surprise, disappointment included. Negative emotions are still valuable feedback. A complete patch can avoid negativity by being well designed. I appreciate you being so constructive, but I really don't think this is a great time for me to be posting imaginative suggestions when they are so focused on practical matters.

Yes. Negative feedback is wished for, but to have a topic named Matsui 'telling melee range to suck it up'...well, you can see how the rest of the community will react towards such a statement. Especially since it isn't 100% valid as well. But true, since they're focusing on actual matters, it probably make new ideas redundant. I approve of it, but the means at which you go around expressing your negativity is still a bit extreme.

There are a lot of active dev tags about issues that could really make or break this game right now. You'll see my apparent attitude change after that, if I'm still playing.

All our attitudes will change depending on the devs choices, and right now, there are changes that can't be accepted. And some of those changes don't sit well with you, Neptune. That's ok, relax. The devs will get the feedback, and balance it out so it isn't as extreme a change. But the way you've been practically feeding this forum on your concern is a bit daunting, and at the same time, can be aggravating. You're entitled to it, really, but perhaps it's time to accept it. Relax. Take a breather from the game, and come back when you can accept the change.

Try to take a look at this thread as something more than complaining - it's about human behavior and how online games are evolving as the relationship between dev team and players becomes clearer - distilled into an opinion about one single issue negatively affecting other players.

You see, Neptune, that's the problem. You try to fight a losing battle, and in the process of trying to make constructive criticism, its as if you complaining and grumbling, when you clearly aren't; I can see and tell. For example, your Mage Strike topic. It's logical to be a bit iffy because of the changes, because, yes, the changes were heavy, and people are not the same in adapting to changes. But to create 3 threads that targets the unjust nature of the patch against mages, when the majority of the community have accepted the changes and wait for fine-tuning to balance it out, is a bit extreme. As the saying goes, too many cooks spoil the broth, and you have too many topics addressing that issue of mages. Let it cool, let it sink into the devs, and check back on it next patch; if it isn't improved, yell a bit more. But harping on about it, no matter the intention, won't paint you in a better light, Neptune.

This thread is a bit better, true. The complaints are, from conflicting perspectives, justified. So you're correct in your sense. However, I still believe that way you say is harsh. Saying that Matsui told us to 'suck it up' is taking it a bit extreme. But then, that's also a matter of representation. You interpret that statement as one thing, and me a different. Besides, no offence to Reinheart because I respect him a lot for his work in bringing us fast news (hugs his subligar), but it may not be entirely accurate. And Bayohne's localisation doesn't seem to suggest anything of Matsui's attitude. You are, however, quite justified in expressing concern regarding the structure of parties in the dungeons because of each class' advantages, and right now, ARC and GLA take the high spot. I see this as a fast fix that can work for this case and level of the game, but you see it as something that won't alter the situation.

But even so, I don't think you'll get a response. I'm sorry to say, but I think you're in the minority regarding the changes coming in 1.18a. Of course, the ARC-fans will be backing up their class no matter what, but even so, the majority (I think) are quite alright with the proposed changes. In fact, it's been a rather positive outlook. -looks at the more constructive posts on the 1.18a topic-

Either way, I still admire you for your rather in-depth analytic posts, as well as your minimal tendency to insult and berate others. But sometimes, its best to just step back.

I'm sorry to be calling you out like this, but I do this because I still like you, and I want your more valuable posts to be acknowledged. So I'm sorry if I offended you badly, Neptune.

Just remember that if you do feel stressed out or banged, just rest. Sleep more, stretch more, scream and run through the streets naked if you have to. It can do wonders for the body and brain. The resting, that is. Not the streaking through the streets.

Except, you didn't fix the one that makes it sound ridiculous. Riddle = River.

Hmm...I have to disagree. No matter how much I listen to that song, it still sounds like 'riddle' instead of 'river'. The soundtrack version AND the live performance at the Tokyo distant worlds have it as 'riddle', so I'm having that one, still.

[Ryndael]

Hmm...I have to disagree. No matter how much I listen to that song, it still sounds like 'riddle' instead of 'river'. The soundtrack version AND the live performance at the Tokyo distant worlds have it as 'riddle', so I'm having that one, still.

How do riddles 'bear' anything? And riddles don't 'flow from the land'. Doesn't even make sense. The song is equating life to a river.

[whoopeeragon]

How do riddles 'bear' anything? And riddles don't 'flow from the land'. Doesn't even make sense. The song is equating life to a river.

It doesn't make sense, but that's what the song has. I'm not about to argue the abstract qualities of a song or not, but the lyrics and the two versions I have both use riddle instead of river, so that's staying there. Besides, the 'bearing' part is for life, not the riddle part. The song is likening life to a riddle (seeking to find Answers). As for the 'flow from the land', that's also taking about life.

[Ryndael]

It doesn't make sense, but that's what the song has. I'm not about to argue the abstract qualities of a song or not, but the lyrics and the two versions I have both use riddle instead of river, so that's staying there. Besides, the 'bearing' part is for life, not the riddle part. The song is likening life to a riddle (seeking to find Answers). As for the 'flow from the land', that's also taking about life.

Aww, I wanted a page-long reply.

[TirionCrey]

Why assume everyone is so selfish? Why would you assume I don't care about other players getting excluded? What is going on right now is ridiculous. I log on, my group farms Batraal, and we practically throw away axes that drop since nobody has Marauder up. It's completely unfair for 4/5ths of melee to be so looked down upon. I've been looked down on in FFXI for trying to do my thing so I know what it feels like to have the community turn against you.. because of the initiative of the battle planner.

My first Job I ranked to 75 in XI was DRK...that was during RoZ/CoP time, so you can figure how much I got "excluded" from stuff. That's the time where you need to take the initiative and step up and do shit on your own. Form your own groups, start a group, make a LS, whatever...it all comes down to people complaining but doing NOTHING to change it. I started almost all of the groups I lvld my DRK with and big surprise, over time people got to know me and actually ASKED me to join their PTs, cause they knew I've been a good DRK compared to so many shitty ones who actually worked on his job to get good gear and have Scythe/Sword both capped etc...

And why? Because people are lazy and rather have everyone else organize shit and just expect to be taken to just everything. Sorry, if you're not stepping up don't feel butthurt if other people who actually do it, won't let you join.

Plus, if you wanna come on Dungeon Runs as a Meele, which is absolutely possible and works, why not actually DO something and help the group by being prepared...rank your classes so you can avoid dmg and don't need to run from every single AoE attack. Get Stun WSs into your bars, get Featherfoot, Foresight, Second Wind, Decoy, Diversion and whatnot...ALL of them will help you not taking dmg while staying on Ogre and Batraal so you won't be a "burden" for the healers and instead a valuable addition to the group.

People could find solutions to counter this "narrow minded" group setups, but most are not even willing to do it, cause they are lazy f**ks...

If you want to go into the dungeon and KNOW just your mere presence will make it harder for the rest of the group, why not get the stick out of your ass and actually improve your character and his skills to be less of a burden?
People just screaming and complaining "I want to go in the dungeon as well" and then being excluded from it just cause their Meeles are just as selfish, as everyone else who excludes them for no reason...

PS: Your Canopus Bill example is invalid, cause MRd is a viable tank on Ogre and Batraal...if you got MRDs who don't wanna tank, well then don't be butthurt as well...work with what you're given!