Massive fail by Matsui - telling melee range to suck it up for not getting invites

[Neptune]

*Special note to Matsui: Matsui, I have to thank you for your work on FFXIV. The battle system is truly enjoyable compared to other games. You do good work. With that stated, I disagree with how you handled the following issue.*

I noticed this in the Reinheart translations thread (thanks Reinheart for translation!) and as the issue has not been articulated as clearly as our Japanese friend has put it, here it is for your convenience. Discussion will follow.

ver1.18以降、各クラスに色々なしわ寄せが来ていると思います。
バトルバランスが崩れた結果、出てきた戦術はメインタンクがタゲとってヒーラーはひたすら回復、遠距離で弓・魔法がDDという、最もありきたりのものです。
After the 1.18 patch there are problems with different classes.
due to the battle balance breaking the main method for strategy became something simple like main tank getting the target, healer heals only and from distance archer and magic being the DD.

そのおかげで盾役以外の前衛職は大変不遇な状況に陥っています。
私は現在の状況に対し、次の２点が問題だと感じています。
Now because of that other melee classes which are not tanks are suffering
With current situation I believe these two are the problem.

1.前衛アタッカーは不要という状態
Situation where melee attackers (close range) are not needed

回復魔法のコストが高くなったおかげで、ヒーラーに手のかからない遠距離アタッカーが有利となりました。
盾役以外の前衛職は、自己ケアルが（MPの都合上）できない、ヒーラーからの回復も期待できない、限定された回避・防御アビリティのなかで強大な敵と戦わざるを得ないという、三重苦を背負わされています。
現にゼーメルのボスや旧NMに対しては、前衛アタッカーはろくすっぽ近づくことすらできません。完全に雑魚専です。
（たぶん）後衛大好きな吉田・松井両氏が前衛職を後衛様の露払いかボス戦の鉄砲玉としか扱っていないのは火を見るより明らかです。
Because of the healing MP cost getting high, it became better to use range attackers which doesn't require healers to pay much attention to. Aside from tank other melee jobs (close range) can't cure self (due to MP) can't expect to get cure from healers. With capped evasion/defense ability have to fight strong mobs. Currently with boss like from dzamel, other previous NM's close range attackers can't even get near them. It's completely now for other mobs (mobs that's together with NM) (maybe) Yoshida and Matsui likes range/distance attacking class wanted to change close range attackers to be same way.

2.盾役1名でクリアできてしまうレイドダンジョン
Instance Raid which can be cleared with 1 tank

冒頭に述べた最も淡白な戦術が最も有効となってしまっているのは、私が思うにこれに尽きると思います。
なぜ一人でタゲ維持できる、あるいは一人がタゲもって耐え切れるバランスなのですか？
吉田氏がどこかのインタビューで”タンク二人、アタッカー二人、ヒーラー二人・・・”というコメントを出したとき、バトルのバリエーションが増えそうだなと思っていたのですが、現状がこれではバリエーションも何もありません。方針を変更されたんですか？
Why is the balance of the raids where 1 tank can keep the target, in interview somewhere Yoshida commented "2 tank, 2 attacker, 2 healer..." I thought there will be different variations but in reality there is no variation, did he change his goal?

今、前衛職は身一つで接敵して回復も復活もあてにできない中で敵のWSを避けつつ耐えつつ本来の役割をこなそうとする人ばかりです。こういったリスクを冒す人に対し、開発は十分なベネフィットを与えるような設計をしてるといえますか？
盾とヒーラーと安全圏から遠距離攻撃という鉄板戦術も結構ですが、これでは多くの人が魅力的に感じるバトルとはいえないでしょう。（確かアンケ結果も近接アタッカーが一番の人気職でしたよね）
Currently close range attacker has to try their best to avoid enemy WS, heal on own, and can't expect to be raised. Does the dev think this is good enough method for these players? It's find having tank, healer, and range attacker strategy but doubt this is a battle style is attractive to everyone. (In the poll wasn't close range attacker was the class most people liked)

バトルデザインの再考を強く要望します。
Would like to request information on details for battle design.

Translated since it had 60+ likes.

こんにちは。
Hello,

本件について松井と相談をしてきました。
Talked to Matsui regarding this.

前衛アタッカーについて
まず格闘士／斧術士／槍術士のいくつかのアクションでもう少しダメージが与えられるように調整します。
（現在、変更後の状態でバトルバランスのチェックを行っています。）
Regarding close range atacker.
First Puglist/Marauder/Lancer - will adjust so few actions can deal little more damage
(Currently checking the battle balance after the changes (1.18))
モンスターの範囲攻撃について
強力な範囲攻撃の多くには有効範囲が設けられているため、対象となるモンスターの側面や背面に立ち位置を取ると攻撃をかわせたりもします。この点に関しては、もう少し戦略として工夫できる余地があると感じているため、今しばらく様子を見させてください。
Monsters AOE attacks
Strong AOE has a effect range standing in different direction of the mob can make it possible to avoid these. For this one let us see how it goes little more and will see if we can make changes since it's possible to improve as strategy.

その上で必要な部分に関しては、クラスとモンスターの両方の観点から随時調整を行っていきます。
With those will make adjustments to both class and monster point of view.

Now, in case any of you don't know I am a ranged attacker. I saw on the forums that hours after the patch melee range was not invited to runs of Darkhold even by loyal linkshell members, and firsthand I've seen it in game, almost every run, and every single serious run.

Whether there's better melee strategy or not is irrelevant. Melee are not getting invites, and it's the dev team's problem. The problem of melee being excluded is due to ridiculous MP cost hikes, and not due to melee players having no desire to learn strategy. The dev team needs to figure out how to make the gameplay challenging without relying solely on high healing magic costs.

Please Matsui, feel the pulse of the gameplayers and take responsibility for your role in influencing player behavior.

[Zkieve]

I always tought of rangers in most games to be overpowered compared to reality simply becouse they had to buy ammo.
Nerf arc atack and increase melee atack.
All fixed, arc already have the distance advantage , should not get ALSO the damage advantage they now have.

[Duelle]

I always tought of rangers in most games to be overpowered compared to reality simply becouse they had to buy ammo.
Nerf arc atack and increase melee atack.
All fixed, arc already have the distance advantage , should not get ALSO the damage advantage they now have.

I still don't understand how Blizzard's design team got the ranged vs melee thing working relatively well (Hunters don't trump melee unless the boss has a specific mechanic that is harder on melee than on ranged...or through pure DPS discrepancies, which we haven't really seen since TBC), yet SE after a decade with Ranger's issues still hasn't learned how to make it work.

Would your solution be for them to drop the MP cost on heals? Or make the boss more melee friendly? Either way, favoring ranged attacks is a type of strategy, and strategies are more valuable, in my opinion, than tank-n'-spank boss fights.

Strategies become valuable when your actions during the actual encounter determine whether you win or not, NOT what your raid comp is before you even set foot inside.

[ViolentDjango]

I always tought of rangers in most games to be overpowered compared to reality simply becouse they had to buy ammo.
Nerf arc atack and increase melee atack.
All fixed, arc already have the distance advantage , should not get ALSO the damage advantage they now have.

Ranger/Archer is supposed to be overpowered. Its pretty much the melee equivalent of Black Mage.

The problem is less with the game design and more with people -- its been proven time and time again than any set up can beat the dungeons. GLA tanks, MRD tanks, PUG tanks, LNC/MRD/PUG DDs, CON healers, THM healers -- anything works as long as its properly balanced.

Just because the Healer/Archer/Tank set up is the most efficient doesn't mean there's a desperate need of change or to nerf Archer -- they just need to design future content in a way that grants other DDs an equal chance.

[Kensei]

I always tought of rangers in most games to be overpowered compared to reality simply becouse they had to buy ammo.
Nerf arc atack and increase melee atack.
All fixed, arc already have the distance advantage , should not get ALSO the damage advantage they now have.

Archers have to buy ammo and they can't take more than a couple of hits. In exchange for that they have higher damage. It's their one contribution to a party. PUG/LNC/MRD all bring other things to the groups aside from DD like tanking or LNC increases TP generation for example. If PUG/LNC/MRD could outdamage ARC while being able to wear armor, have higher HP and survivability, bring abilities that boost the whole PTs performance then what the hell is the perk of using ARC?

[mysterytaru]

Where did he tell melee DD to suck it up? He said they're making more balance changes still and looking into this issue as well. He gave tips on how to deal with it until they've got a better idea on the long term impact of what they've changed. You should go into Corporate PR, with the way you twist and spin the devs words.

[Neptune]

Where did he tell melee DD to suck it up? He said they're making more balance changes still and looking into this issue as well. He gave tips on how to deal with it until they've got a better idea on the long term impact of what they've changed. You should go into Corporate PR, with the way you twist and spin the devs words.

Dude are you kidding me? You should join a cult where you can more fully appreciate the halo effect. After that long post, Matsui talks about aoe damage. AOE damage! Of all things he could say. He says it right here:

it's possible to improve as strategy

No, no it's not possible to improve since they are never going to get the opportunity. The decisions he makes affects group composition.. he needs to change the flow not think about battle balance.

For the record, I hope the fights stay as challenging as they are now. The AOE attack should still hit for 1500 damage, but if healing magic could be cast more and raise recast lowered it would allow melee range to at least get a fair shot at trying the fights.

[Starlord]

Dude are you kidding me? You should join a cult where you can more fully appreciate the halo effect. After that long post, Matsui talks about aoe damage. AOE damage! Of all things he could say. He says it right here:


No, no it's not possible to improve since they are never going to get the opportunity. The decisions he makes affects group composition.. he needs to change the flow not think about battle balance.

For the record, I hope the fights stay as challenging as they are now. The AOE attack should still hit for 1500 damage, but if healing magic could be cast more and raise recast lowered it would allow melee range to at least get a fair shot at trying the fights.

*Sings* I smell Over~Reaction.... all over zee place

[Aldora]

No, no it's not possible to improve since they are never going to get the opportunity. The decisions he makes affects group composition.. he needs to change the flow not think about battle balance.

I believe that adjusting the balance will also change the flow of a battle and require different strategies for bringing down tough (boss) mobs. Therefore, for now i tend to put the lack of melee invites under the "balancing"-work they will be doing for the patches 1.19 and 1.20.

For all we know, the introduction of the Job-system might reduce MP Cost for healing abilities when selecting the "Healer"-job or maybe increase the damage dealt melee classes when the "Warrior"-job has been selected. But, i do not want to speculate what SE has in store for us in the upcomming patches.

Personally, i'm going to wait untill they are finished implementing the new battle- and job-system before diving into game. But that's just me...

[Neptune]

I believe that adjusting the balance will also change the flow of a battle and require different strategies for bringing down tough (boss) mobs. Therefore, for now i tend to put the lack of melee invites under the "balancing"-work they will be doing for the patches 1.19 and 1.20.

For all we know, the introduction of the Job-system might reduce MP Cost for healing abilities when selecting the "Healer"-job or maybe increase the damage dealt melee classes when the "Warrior"-job has been selected. But, i do not want to speculate what SE has in store for us in the upcomming patches.

Personally, i'm going to wait untill they are finished implementing the new battle- and job-system before diving into game. But that's just me...

At best you're right, and at worst you're horribly wrong. But that's why I post on these forums, to ensure the best possible outcome. I just want to do my part to make the issues clear. Your suggestions would be great and I hope that is exactly what happens. I was talking about flow of player behavior actually.

I really don't see this being a problem when people are beating this w/o all arc teams. Meowwowie had shown us a great vid of them slaying the ogre. it just feels like you are saying they should lower mp's cost and let melee stay in and just get hit and so mages can spam cure's.

If you don't see a problem you should ask around your server and talk to some of the melee players who have had a lot of trouble getting into Darkhold runs. The real problem is that the dev team doesn't see the kind of feedback that is right there in front of them. MP costs should be lowered because it should only take 2 mages not 3-5. Spam curing is fine for a few minutes, maybe 5. Right now you could maybe get off like 1 minute of true cure spam before wipe.