Massive fail by Matsui - telling melee range to suck it up for not getting invites

[Neptune]

*Special note to Matsui: Matsui, I have to thank you for your work on FFXIV. The battle system is truly enjoyable compared to other games. You do good work. With that stated, I disagree with how you handled the following issue.*

I noticed this in the Reinheart translations thread (thanks Reinheart for translation!) and as the issue has not been articulated as clearly as our Japanese friend has put it, here it is for your convenience. Discussion will follow.

ver1.18以降、各クラスに色々なしわ寄せが来ていると思います。
バトルバランスが崩れた結果、出てきた戦術はメインタンクがタゲとってヒーラーはひたすら回復、遠距離で弓・魔法がDDという、最もありきたりのものです。
After the 1.18 patch there are problems with different classes.
due to the battle balance breaking the main method for strategy became something simple like main tank getting the target, healer heals only and from distance archer and magic being the DD.

そのおかげで盾役以外の前衛職は大変不遇な状況に陥っています。
私は現在の状況に対し、次の２点が問題だと感じています。
Now because of that other melee classes which are not tanks are suffering
With current situation I believe these two are the problem.

1.前衛アタッカーは不要という状態
Situation where melee attackers (close range) are not needed

回復魔法のコストが高くなったおかげで、ヒーラーに手のかからない遠距離アタッカーが有利となりました。
盾役以外の前衛職は、自己ケアルが（MPの都合上）できない、ヒーラーからの回復も期待できない、限定された回避・防御アビリティのなかで強大な敵と戦わざるを得ないという、三重苦を背負わされています。
現にゼーメルのボスや旧NMに対しては、前衛アタッカーはろくすっぽ近づくことすらできません。完全に雑魚専です。
（たぶん）後衛大好きな吉田・松井両氏が前衛職を後衛様の露払いかボス戦の鉄砲玉としか扱っていないのは火を見るより明らかです。
Because of the healing MP cost getting high, it became better to use range attackers which doesn't require healers to pay much attention to. Aside from tank other melee jobs (close range) can't cure self (due to MP) can't expect to get cure from healers. With capped evasion/defense ability have to fight strong mobs. Currently with boss like from dzamel, other previous NM's close range attackers can't even get near them. It's completely now for other mobs (mobs that's together with NM) (maybe) Yoshida and Matsui likes range/distance attacking class wanted to change close range attackers to be same way.

2.盾役1名でクリアできてしまうレイドダンジョン
Instance Raid which can be cleared with 1 tank

冒頭に述べた最も淡白な戦術が最も有効となってしまっているのは、私が思うにこれに尽きると思います。
なぜ一人でタゲ維持できる、あるいは一人がタゲもって耐え切れるバランスなのですか？
吉田氏がどこかのインタビューで”タンク二人、アタッカー二人、ヒーラー二人・・・”というコメントを出したとき、バトルのバリエーションが増えそうだなと思っていたのですが、現状がこれではバリエーションも何もありません。方針を変更されたんですか？
Why is the balance of the raids where 1 tank can keep the target, in interview somewhere Yoshida commented "2 tank, 2 attacker, 2 healer..." I thought there will be different variations but in reality there is no variation, did he change his goal?

今、前衛職は身一つで接敵して回復も復活もあてにできない中で敵のWSを避けつつ耐えつつ本来の役割をこなそうとする人ばかりです。こういったリスクを冒す人に対し、開発は十分なベネフィットを与えるような設計をしてるといえますか？
盾とヒーラーと安全圏から遠距離攻撃という鉄板戦術も結構ですが、これでは多くの人が魅力的に感じるバトルとはいえないでしょう。（確かアンケ結果も近接アタッカーが一番の人気職でしたよね）
Currently close range attacker has to try their best to avoid enemy WS, heal on own, and can't expect to be raised. Does the dev think this is good enough method for these players? It's find having tank, healer, and range attacker strategy but doubt this is a battle style is attractive to everyone. (In the poll wasn't close range attacker was the class most people liked)

バトルデザインの再考を強く要望します。
Would like to request information on details for battle design.

Translated since it had 60+ likes.

こんにちは。
Hello,

本件について松井と相談をしてきました。
Talked to Matsui regarding this.

前衛アタッカーについて
まず格闘士／斧術士／槍術士のいくつかのアクションでもう少しダメージが与えられるように調整します。
（現在、変更後の状態でバトルバランスのチェックを行っています。）
Regarding close range atacker.
First Puglist/Marauder/Lancer - will adjust so few actions can deal little more damage
(Currently checking the battle balance after the changes (1.18))
モンスターの範囲攻撃について
強力な範囲攻撃の多くには有効範囲が設けられているため、対象となるモンスターの側面や背面に立ち位置を取ると攻撃をかわせたりもします。この点に関しては、もう少し戦略として工夫できる余地があると感じているため、今しばらく様子を見させてください。
Monsters AOE attacks
Strong AOE has a effect range standing in different direction of the mob can make it possible to avoid these. For this one let us see how it goes little more and will see if we can make changes since it's possible to improve as strategy.

その上で必要な部分に関しては、クラスとモンスターの両方の観点から随時調整を行っていきます。
With those will make adjustments to both class and monster point of view.

Now, in case any of you don't know I am a ranged attacker. I saw on the forums that hours after the patch melee range was not invited to runs of Darkhold even by loyal linkshell members, and firsthand I've seen it in game, almost every run, and every single serious run.

Whether there's better melee strategy or not is irrelevant. Melee are not getting invites, and it's the dev team's problem. The problem of melee being excluded is due to ridiculous MP cost hikes, and not due to melee players having no desire to learn strategy. The dev team needs to figure out how to make the gameplay challenging without relying solely on high healing magic costs.

Please Matsui, feel the pulse of the gameplayers and take responsibility for your role in influencing player behavior.

[Zkieve]

I always tought of rangers in most games to be overpowered compared to reality simply becouse they had to buy ammo.
Nerf arc atack and increase melee atack.
All fixed, arc already have the distance advantage , should not get ALSO the damage advantage they now have.

[mysterytaru]

Where did he tell melee DD to suck it up? He said they're making more balance changes still and looking into this issue as well. He gave tips on how to deal with it until they've got a better idea on the long term impact of what they've changed. You should go into Corporate PR, with the way you twist and spin the devs words.

[Sav]

This is the only endgame fight out right now. Once more are implemented, will this still be a problem? I haven't done the raid yet, so I can't comment. At least solo, I'm content with the MP cost of Cures. Then again, I'm a CON.

Would your solution be for them to drop the MP cost on heals? Or make the boss more melee friendly? Either way, favoring ranged attacks is a type of strategy, and strategies are more valuable, in my opinion, than tank-n'-spank boss fights.

It's not that I can't relate completely, though. In FFXI, my main was THF, meaning I was useful for pretty much just sky farming and nothing else. I'd manage to get pity invites to other events from LS mates, heh.

If it's a game-breaker for you, keep in mind the raid is still only two weeks old. People need time to get comfortable with it.

[Neptune]

Where did he tell melee DD to suck it up? He said they're making more balance changes still and looking into this issue as well. He gave tips on how to deal with it until they've got a better idea on the long term impact of what they've changed. You should go into Corporate PR, with the way you twist and spin the devs words.

Dude are you kidding me? You should join a cult where you can more fully appreciate the halo effect. After that long post, Matsui talks about aoe damage. AOE damage! Of all things he could say. He says it right here:

it's possible to improve as strategy

No, no it's not possible to improve since they are never going to get the opportunity. The decisions he makes affects group composition.. he needs to change the flow not think about battle balance.

For the record, I hope the fights stay as challenging as they are now. The AOE attack should still hit for 1500 damage, but if healing magic could be cast more and raise recast lowered it would allow melee range to at least get a fair shot at trying the fights.

[Starlord]

Dude are you kidding me? You should join a cult where you can more fully appreciate the halo effect. After that long post, Matsui talks about aoe damage. AOE damage! Of all things he could say. He says it right here:


No, no it's not possible to improve since they are never going to get the opportunity. The decisions he makes affects group composition.. he needs to change the flow not think about battle balance.

For the record, I hope the fights stay as challenging as they are now. The AOE attack should still hit for 1500 damage, but if healing magic could be cast more and raise recast lowered it would allow melee range to at least get a fair shot at trying the fights.

*Sings* I smell Over~Reaction.... all over zee place

[Eekiki]

I'm not entirely sure what your point is because of your use of the term "melee range". What's that mean?

[Seirra_Lanzce]

well if challenge is what you want, why not instead of reducing the darn AOE attack, let it be, just adjust our melee damage xD

[Visch]

Oh no people get sidelined! Let's all cry!

Did you even play 11 OP? Wtf.

[Neptune]

This is the only endgame fight out right now. Once more are implemented, will this still be a problem?

Would your solution be for them to drop the MP cost on heals? Or make the boss more melee friendly? Either way, favoring ranged attacks is a type of strategy, and strategies are more valuable, in my opinion, than tank-n'-spank boss fights.

...keep in mind the raid is still only two weeks old. People need time to get comfortable with it.

Yes, it will always be a problem. Make no mistake the dev team worked very hard on this dungeon, and I'll post my overall thoughts about it later. No doubt the gameplay was not as good with the old healing magic system and that's why they changed it. But it isn't worth the trade off, as I have stated elsewhere. It will continue to be a problem until they come up with something that doesn't rest on spare curing as the backbone.

My solution? If I were in charge every class would be in charge of managing its own limited healing options. The dev team is best equipped to create the challenging gameplay they want and prioritize what's important to them. What I'm shocked about is that even after this generous period of feedback since the patch, this is all Matsui can come up with. Clearly something is broken when it relies on MP costs alone. Good God, why don't they fire up WoW. Healing is important in the really tough fights in that game but it's not broken. I remember from WoW that if melee messed up they could get healers into trouble, and if it went on way to long it would be a wipe. That seems to be a more desirable outcome than melee getting dropped from serious groups straight up.

The thing is even if people do get comfortable with it, people have already been mistreated for 2 weeks. How do you think some of them feel, especially if they're already feeling down about this game or the patch to begin with?

I'm not entirely sure what your point is because of your use of the term "melee range". What's that mean?

Sorry if that was confusing. I meant people that attack in melee range, all DoW except Gladiator.

Did you even play 11 OP? Wtf.

XI is irrelevant.. just because Tanaka couldn't solve a problem doesn't give that problem an excuse to exist! Do you really want all the problems from XI in a new game? I believe that's called masochism.