Level 50 Dungeon Level Syncs

[Kosmos992k]

And again.. missing the point. Level restriction IS a restriction on content--by definition it restricts you to a lower level content level than you otherwise would be without it.

No. ilvl sync does not restrict your level, nor does it in any way restrict you to lower level content. What it does is restore game balance by preventing excessive overgearing of content.

Personally, I haven't touched anything below High roulette since the first week of 2.5...and that was only until I unlocked expert. Now I just run that once a day for the tomes and alex map, then I'm chasing lights and Alex/materia for my second weapon until I complete their current stages. Once I'm done with my relics, you may not see me an anything but Expert and CT chains--and that may only hold until I'm done with the Ironworks gear I want. I could care less about glamours, so once I'm done with older content... I'm pretty much done with it unless I desire to help someone run it. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that regard.

Great. thank you for that. So, if what you say is true, why would a more effective ilvl sync have any more impact tha the disinterest of players such as yourself already has? If you and those who think like you are already avoiding such content, what does it matter to you if there is a more effective level sync?

Stepping into a fight with nerfed stats is NOT an incentive to do so, and no.... tomes are not a valid reward to sway me either.

I'm going to presume then that you never participate in any FATE below your level? As for tomes not being an incentive. I'm sure that it must be great not to need/want any more tomes, once again though, it underlines the point that the content we are discussing is not very relevant to you already, applying a more effective ilvl sync would not in any way alter your calculation of whether it's worth participating in it, and nor would it alter that for any other players like you - since you don't do that content anyway, and you don't want/need the tomes.

It is not a new problem...

Fatigue among high level veteran players at end-game? Sure, that's not a new issue, it's always going to be an issue. Here is an alternate viewpoint though. I've watched this same thing play out where veteran players burned themselves out on lower level content and became so overpowered that the low level content provided no challenge. The result was a large group of high level players bored to tears running lower level dungeons because they could ignore everything, one shot trash and melt the boss. The overpowering of content by both level and gear ultimately meant that those players got pissed off whenever any new/low level player asked to run some lower level dungeon, or they'd run it, and the new player would get pissed off because they got dragged through the dungeon without any input and were both bored and alienated from the game.

Oh, and just so you know, there were some dungeons with two or even three levels of difficulty, the low level version might (for instance) be level 30, and the high level one might be level 50. The high level players were far, far more apt to run the harder version than the lower one because there was zero challenge in the lower one. To me, that is an absolute demonstration that for the same content if the degree of difficulty is preserved to some extent, people are more likely, not less likely, to play it.

The level sync in the pre-50 dungeons is one of the best things that SE has done with the game because it preserves some degree of the original dungeon.

Which brings us to Mykll's point further down about SE forcing people back into older content as needed via the relic chain. They risk pushing the players too far with that cheap and annoying gimmick to the point that they just stop doing it.

Except that the relic weapon quest was expressly designed to be a long grind as an alternative for players who were not running coil, or extreme primals, allowing those players a path to upgrade, simply by playing over time. It was not designed to be rushed by speedrunning certain content into oblivion, that is unfortunately how many people play it. It makes me wonder though, if these players already have the raid level gear, why are they bothering with the relics? Given their gear, those are optional to them. In which case, they can hardly bitch about having to re-run content for items that are in terms of their gear are side grades. Again, the relic quest line was designed to be a long term grind. If anything, the players speed running and grinding it into oblivion are making it harder for everyone else because the acquisition rate of upgraded relics forces SE to make each stage extremely grindy to slow the players down. Thanks for that by the way.

It really is that simple. If they push the players too hard with this backwards mentality of forcing them into outdated capped instances to continue piecemeal advancements on their gear, but there is an easier option available that is just as good, or maybe not quite so good but good enough to complete new content (or, shudder the thought, a weapon BETTER then the potential new relic stage)---eventually they WILL stop advancing the relic quest line completely and just move on to the next new shinies made available as a drop or purchased with each new content release.

This actually argues against your stance. The point of the relic quest line was to be an alternative to the raid and EX mode weapons for players who were NOT (for whatever reason) running coil or EX primals. It is specifically designed as a way of allowing people who just play the regular content to have an upgrade path for their gear. The people who will move on to the other gear will move on to it anyway, the people who the relic upgrade quests were designed for will continue plugging away at the game and upgrade their stuff in due time.

All of this has happened before, and it shall all happen again if we are not careful.

Love the doom laden comment, you sound so much like a soothsayer of old. Doom and gloom aside, I believe that* you are very wrong. In my opinion*, you've missed the point that there are 3 avenues of gear acquisition in the game. What you suggest does little more than funnel everyone into one of two alternate ways of getting gear, and a large portion of the player base has already demonstrated that they do not want to go either of those paths. Kindly leave the third path alone.

* - added to make it crystal clear that I am stating my opinion that your arguments are wrong.

[Tiggy]

Kosmos. You won't make any headway telling people why their opinions are wrong. Their opinions are perfectly valid which serve as counterpoints to your own, and it is clearly a viewpoint shared by many people. The solution isn't to tell them why they are wrong because they aren't. Their opinion, viewpoint, and play styles are just as valid as your own. The solution is to understand their point of view and come up with an answer that works for both sides. Consistently telling people they are wrong and failing to understand them will never get you anywhere. A few pages ago I thought you understood this but I still see you arguing opinions more than searching for solutions.

[Kosmos992k]

Yeah, OK, so, I was kind of under the impression that everything posted to an online forum was opinion, and whenever something is stated as a fact, people are more than welcome to provide a link supporting their statement. Otherwise, opinion is opinion. I can say your opinion is wrong if I think it is. You can quibble that I did not say "In my opinion" first if you like, but I think it's quite well understood that we are all giving opinions.

As for searching for solutions, I already posted what I consider a viable suggestion for a solution. Raist was arguing an opinion based on personal experience, I countered his argument with my own. How is that a problem? It's not a matter of failing to understand what Raist said, I disagree with him, and my own experience says that he's wrong. While your firing at me fir giving my opinion, would you care to direct some of that fire at the gloom laden, and absolute, statements posted by Raist?

Sitting here and telling each other "your opinion is wrong" isn't very constructive, though.

Did you actually read my post? The only place I told Raist that he was wrong was with regard to his final paragraph. It rather seems that both you and Tiggy would rather argue about this than discuss the actual content of the post. And I do think that Raist is wrong in his last paragraph, I fail to see how saying so is so incredibly provocative to you both, unless it's simply easier to side track the discussion that way.

[Ashkendor]

Otherwise, opinion is opinion. I can say your opinion is wrong if I think it is.

Sitting here and telling each other "your opinion is wrong" isn't very constructive, though. It doesn't accomplish anything aside from making people on both sides of things frustrated. I'm wrong to you and you're wrong to me; if we're both wrong, why are we even having a discussion in the first place? If we want to accomplish anything, we have to at least accept the other person has a differing viewpoint and find a way to compromise. Our opinions are just as valid as yours. Arguments and discussions don't have winners and losers. This isn't about countering arguments and figuring out who's "right" and by extension whose solution is "right". It's not about painting our point of view in a positive light and the opposing point of view in a negative light. It's about the different ways that people see a particular issue, and discussing whether there's a way we can meet in the middle.

We all play the game for different reasons, so SE has to do their best to accomodate the majority.

[Nyalia]

I didn't read the other posts in this thread, but wanted to post my feelings on the topic:

I really enjoy running old content while incredibly overgeared. There's just something satisfying about seeing how many groups you can pull and how far you can push it. If the bosses are too easy, you can treat them like any other trash mob - drag the trash from in front of the boss room into the boss and AoE them down together. It's all kinds of fun!

That said, I also really enjoy having a challenge. I don't really want to see the fun SR dungeons go away, but I totally get where the OP is coming from.

What if there was a new roulette, High Level Synced or something, where when you get into a dungeon, everyone is item-level-synced to the minimum ilvl for the dungeon + 10 (or other hardcoded number)? Then, add in the ability for a player queuing for a specific dungeon to choose between the level sync options. Double all non-loot rewards (tomes, gil) for the lowest sync option, or just give a flat bonus at the end. That both preserves the current dungeon setup and provides people who want a challenge with the ability to challenge themselves.

It would make old content interesting again to newer players like me who never got to run dungeons like AK or WP when they were current content.

[Tiggy]

Sitting here and telling each other "your opinion is wrong" isn't very constructive, though. It doesn't accomplish anything aside from making people on both sides of things frustrated. I'm wrong to you and you're wrong to me; if we're both wrong, why are we even having a discussion in the first place? If we want to accomplish anything, we have to at least accept the other person has a differing viewpoint and find a way to compromise. Our opinions are just as valid as yours. Arguments and discussions don't have winners and losers. This isn't about countering arguments and figuring out who's "right" and by extension whose solution is "right". It's not about painting our point of view in a positive light and the opposing point of view in a negative light. It's about the different ways that people see a particular issue, and discussing whether there's a way we can meet in the middle.

We all play the game for different reasons, so SE has to do their best to accomodate the majority.

Exactly this.

[Kosmos992k]

What if there was a new roulette, High Level Synced or something, where when you get into a dungeon, everyone is item-level-synced to the minimum ilvl for the dungeon + 10 (or other hardcoded number)? Then, add in the ability for a player queuing for a specific dungeon to choose between the level sync options. Double all non-loot rewards (tomes, gil) for the lowest sync option, or just give a flat bonus at the end. That both preserves the current dungeon setup and provides people who want a challenge with the ability to challenge themselves..

How about leaving the default option as the level sync'd dungeon and the new option being the dungeons without level sync? I suggest it that way round since the default should - in my opinion - always be closer to the original intent of the designer, where running dungeons completely overpowered would be a new optional way to run.

[Tiggy]

How about leaving the default option as the level sync'd dungeon and the new option being the dungeons without level sync? I suggest it that way round since the default should - in my opinion - always be closer to the original intent of the designer, where running dungeons completely overpowered would be a new optional way to run.

I'd say the problem there is that the designers intend for the content to get easier over time. They've said so on numerous occasions that it is a design goal to do so. So chances are the default would be level sync off with the optional challenge of the level sync. In order to entice people into doing it is why I thought the extra loot thing might be nice. Give all those other players a reason to run the dungeon slower than normal. Most people aren't altruistic enough to just do it for funsies. Give them something to farm for. Crafting mats are a prime candidate here.

The soldiery bonus to me was a great expirement in trying different rewards for old content. Thousands of people have gotten wins due to the demands for soldiery. Adding crafting mats to turns 1-5 is another great example. Suddenly I was running coil 1 all over again helping people.
Make the level synced dungeons an optional challenge with unique loot rewards for that challenge. You'll get people flocking to the dungeons for that new gear, and because of the level sync only so much speed running would be possible getting the dungeons back in line with their original difficulty.

My only hope would be that the level-synced versions would be back at their old difficulties since many have been nerfed mechanically not just via ilevel. So even with the level sync applied we still won't see demon wall with hornets and that means we'd still be missing out on the original experience.

[Ashkendor]

unless it's simply easier to side track the discussion that way.

There are much easier ways to sidetrack a discussion. I'm actually here to discuss the issue and don't care to see other people who are just as entitled to express their opinion as the rest of us be driven off by people focusing more on semantics and who is in the right than on the discussion itself. We agree to disagree. Let's make things better.

(I had to lol)

I'd say the problem there is that the designers intend for the content to get easier over time. They've said so on numerous occasions that it is a design goal to do so. So chances are the default would be level sync off with the optional challenge of the level sync. In order to entice people into doing it is why I thought the extra loot thing might be nice. Give all those other players a reason to run the dungeon slower than normal. Most people aren't altruistic enough to just do it for funsies. Give them something to farm for. Crafting mats are a prime candidate here.

Yup. It makes sense that the difficulty wouldn't stay static as time goes on. The nature of upward progression is that eventually your earlier content becomes all but obsolete. I wouldn't be surprised if they phased some of the dungeons out of the actual storyline at 3.0 (let's face it, they create choke points that can be difficult for newer people to get past). I've liked the crafting mats too, honestly. I know I've spammed my share of T4 for lights/mats/spiritbonding. I've run T1/2 in the DF a bunch and jumped in several T5 clear parties now just for the soldiery and a chance at crafting mats and desynthables. It was a step in the right direction.

The soldiery bonus to me was a great expirement in trying different rewards for old content. Thousands of people have gotten wins due to the demands for soldiery. Adding crafting mats to turns 1-5 is another great example. Suddenly I was running coil 1 all over again helping people.

I know my static has done multiple clear parties. Put a party up in party finder: you bring your soldiery bonus, we clear it for you. The offer was open to T1-8 and EX primals. T9 is a different animal altogether. The soldiery bonus is nice, but after a certain point it's not worth it. When the trial is extremely hard won, that 100 soldiery looks like a pittance when you compare it against the time and effort you put into it.

Make the level synced dungeons an optional challenge with unique loot rewards for that challenge. You'll get people flocking to the dungeons for that new gear, and because of the level sync only so much speed running would be possible getting the dungeons back in line with their original difficulty.

I'd possibly go for new gear, as long as it was nice. I do like my glamours.

My only hope would be that the level-synced versions would be back at their old difficulties since many have been nerfed mechanically not just via ilevel. So even with the level sync applied we still won't see demon wall with hornets and that means we'd still be missing out on the original experience.

Haha. If this happened... we'd see forum posts "omg level synced AK is too hard, nerf pls"

[Kosmos992k]

My only hope would be that the level-synced versions would be back at their old difficulties since many have been nerfed mechanically not just via ilevel. So even with the level sync applied we still won't see demon wall with hornets and that means we'd still be missing out on the original experience.

That'd be absolutely fine with me, ilvl sync AK at 90, and gnats or not, the wall is tumbling down. The thing is so many aspects of AK (and other content) that made it difficult the first time it was run had to do with how finely balanced the game was; and the gear we hit that content with was at the low end of what is needed to complete it. But armed with an understanding of the mechanics, you could complete AK in the ilvl 50-70 gear we originally had at that point.If it was sync'd to ilvl 90 even with the original difficulty, I can't imagine that veteran players with high ilvl gear would have serious difficulty completing AK quickly - but they would have a harder time simply ignoring things.

Haha. If this happened... we'd see forum posts "omg level synced AK is too hard, nerf pls"

To which I would hope someone would reply with something like "OMG, you have a problem doing that in ilvl 90 gear? Seriously?"