I think its time BRD get some loving

[Izsha]

All the arguments in this thread are terribly arbitrary and the justification is weak.

1st off: WHY does bard need a buff? Because they are excluded from content? (Like melees before their buff. Or drg even after melee buff. Or smn now etc) nope. Brd is not currently excluded. They are required in every raid group. I also have never heard of a bard in a static getting booted after its on farm status. Ever. That is a hypothetical argument that doesn't actually happen. No one can even answer the WHY with anything except "we do less damage than other jobs". But if bard is not excluded for content, then that rationale simple becomes "I wanna parse higher". And in fact, not only is bard not excluded, it is the ONLY dps most groups REQUIRE in their groups.

No one in 20 pages has articulated 1 rational reason bards NEED to do more damage. Only that they want it, because groups are happily accepting bards at their current damage levels and still requiring them.

The 2nd point being how MUCH to buff them, and that is an entirely subjective fight too, but it isn't even worth discussing until anyone can justify WHY they need it in the 1st place.

[Snugglebutt]

No one in 20 pages has articulated 1 rational reason bards NEED to do more damage. Only that they want it, because groups are happily accepting bards at their current damage levels and still requiring them.

The 2nd point being how MUCH to buff them, and that is an entirely subjective fight too, but it isn't even worth discussing until anyone can justify WHY they need it in the 1st place.

Your on very shaky ground if try pulling the need argument because need and want are so intrinsically intertwined based on personal desires.

I know of SMNs and DRGs who also do end game raids, are part of statics therefore since others of that class are also used in statics for end game content (even though not as popular) means perhaps they do not 'need' to be buffed for that purpose, perhaps they just 'need' to try harder to find/create statics that want/willing to use them. I may not believe in that stance but it's the same principle your arguing, that of a need vs personal desire when in reality there is very little difference between the two to improve your own playing experience. Feel free to explain where you draw the line in the sand between need and want. Another example is Echo for example is not needed according to the elitists, but it sure as hell makes playing a lot more enjoyable for the majority of players and helps them. Is it fundamentally needed though? No, not according to some, but to others yes...need vs want is a dubious argument.

My point is the need excuse is a slippery slope because the boundaries between need and want overlap to a huge extent, do people who want SMNs and DRG buffed want it for a guaranteed spot in raid statics? Is that need or a want to be more popular? There are 8 spaces in such raids and if every class based their 'need' on a guaranteed spot in that static there is not enough spots for every class especially with 3 more classes incoming. SE would have to completely remake 8 man raids increasing the size of raid parties to fulfill that need or more accurately desire/want by people. Bards themselves are not needed in statics, they are wanted quite often because make things easier while training. The need excuse is a flimsy one at best as most come down to nothing more than want and not need at all.

There is actually very little in this game that is needed and need for the most part is very subjective from individual to individual, most of the things people ask for anywhere on these forums are things they 'want' because would improve their playing experience in some way, but not fundamentally needed. This situation is no different to me. Your basing your argument on why do we need it when most of the things people want on these entire forums and game are not needed, they are subjective wants and desires to improve peoples personal playing experiences so how about listing why our suggestions 'need' to be ignored and why shouldn't we have some of the suggestions implemented...because outside of the hyperbolic and melodramatic claims of being overpowered, none of the suggestions I have seen would lead to such a situation so they have no merit to me and by proxy are not valid excuses to why those suggestions need to be ignored in my opinion.

My argument personally in this thread is not that we need it per se, I do however want it and there is little to no reason good enough given so far as to why we shouldn't have some of these suggested changes made. Most of the reasons against are people being melodramatic in how much would affect balance or party dynamics since no one is saying we should DPS output the same as the top tier DPS classes, but we also shouldn't ideally be as low as currently are either. The continued disparity between our WD and other classes also should ideally be fixed. Needed? Debatable and very subjective but so is almost everything people want on here. I want some minor tweaks to improve the class, not a major overhaul to make them overpowered.

Thread closed.

Thread re-opened.

All the other persons post did was sound good, in reality it means little to nothing when delve deeper into the logic behind it. It's a politician style response, sounds good but doesn't really mean much if put to the test and explore it. Even I paused for thought because sounded good but didn't hold much water when thought about it some more. So kudos to him for making an interesting point but on reflection it doesn't have much substance to it.

[AkashiXI]

All the arguments in this thread are terribly arbitrary and the justification is weak.

1st off: WHY does bard need a buff? Because they are excluded from content? (Like melees before their buff. Or drg even after melee buff. Or smn now etc) nope. Brd is not currently excluded. They are required in every raid group. I also have never heard of a bard in a static getting booted after its on farm status. Ever. That is a hypothetical argument that doesn't actually happen. No one can even answer the WHY with anything except "we do less damage than other jobs". But if bard is not excluded for content, then that rationale simple becomes "I wanna parse higher". And in fact, not only is bard not excluded, it is the ONLY dps most groups REQUIRE in their groups.

No one in 20 pages has articulated 1 rational reason bards NE ED to do more damage. Only that they want it, because groups are happily accepting bards at their current damage levels and still requiring them.

The 2nd point being how MUCH to buff them, and that is an entirely subjective fight too, but it isn't even worth discussing until anyone can justify WHY they need it in the 1st place.

You don't wait until a car completely breaks down until you bring it into the shop. If your engine light is blinking, you figure out why. The weapon damage issue is like a huge red light saying, "HEY, SOMETHING'S WRONG", and we've given you plenty of reasons to think so. Would you like the answer in braille too?