I think its time BRD get some loving

[Snugglebutt]

THEY are SUPPORT and will remain that way in the forseeable future. Yoshi-P said there will not be support in this game as a official definition because they go with the holy trinity mode for game play but bard is a support class that fills a dps slot. Its job increases the dps of the other jobs to make do for its lower high end damage then other jobs.

Wrong and I explained why earlier. They are DPS class with eighteen DPS skills and just three support skills (MP regen, TP regen which Ninjas also can do plus resistance debuff skill) plus one skill that enhances those other three. Swiftsong is an out of combat skill so does not matter. Our main stat is DEX which is a damage increasing stat aka DPS. The limit break is also being changed from healing/resurrection to DPS limit break in the near future since even SE now realizes how silly it was to put such a LB on a DPS class. As I said if your playing it as a support class and not a DPS class your playing it very much wrong, it is a DPS class that on some limited occasions makes use of a very few number of support skills and even then only generally when other people mess up. Feel free to argue about whether you think need a buff or removal of a debuff but don't make the mistake of thinking it is not a DPS class.

[Elkya95]

Valid point for 1 bard in group. But what about taking 2-nd bard? Let's assume, you have 3 dps in a group (melee, caster and bard) and you need to find a 4-th dps. Take other melee or caster? Sure, it's ok. Take 2-nd bard. Better not.

While not optimal, it's completely fine to take a 2nd bard. Just gotta be good at it to not hit enrage while progressing, but still fine.

[AkashiXI]

Just an fyi, , Illen, those numbers are low for a caster in t10. A good black mage can hit over 500, 450 is average for my Bard in that run (460+ if I don't have to sing Paeon twice and I'm not chosen for wild charge every time :v)

Edit: Also stop saying we want to be on par with the other dps, none of the good Bards here are saying that. At this point you're feigning logic, and you're blinded by your Summoner melancholy.

[Atomnium]

If BRD was on par with the other dps classes damage-wise, why would raids bring anything else? BRDs are the optimal class to handle mechanics. Why would anyone bring a melee? Why bring a BLM who has to cast/can't easily move? Just bring a BRD!

How do people not understand this?

People who actually complain and ask for a dps buff to BRD in this thread just don't want to understand this.
They just want to maximize their virtual epeen numbers, even if it mean to totally break the game balance.

[Snugglebutt]

People who actually complain and ask for a dps buff to BRD in this thread just don't want to understand this.
They just want to maximize their virtual epeen numbers, even if it mean to totally break the game balance.

I think you do not understand that decrease, removal or replacement of %20 damage debuff which happens only when playing certain songs would not break balance at all. Adding +1 WD will not break balance at all either but the continued disparity between our WD and other DPS classes keeps increasing so our class is becoming more imbalanced negatively with each major patch. I think your overestimating the impact of what people are asking for and being melodramatic about consequences.

I also wonder if people are forgetting we have incoming another very mobile ranged DPS soon by way of the Machinist that will add further competition to the ranged DPS classes. One of our so called three supporting skills is not a buff at all, it is a mob debuff and every class has mob debuffs leaving only two party buff skills for our class. If think Machinist will have zero party buffs or buffs that benefit other party members and zero enemy debuffs I think you will be in for a big surprise.

[Izsha]

All the arguments in this thread are terribly arbitrary and the justification is weak.

1st off: WHY does bard need a buff? Because they are excluded from content? (Like melees before their buff. Or drg even after melee buff. Or smn now etc) nope. Brd is not currently excluded. They are required in every raid group. I also have never heard of a bard in a static getting booted after its on farm status. Ever. That is a hypothetical argument that doesn't actually happen. No one can even answer the WHY with anything except "we do less damage than other jobs". But if bard is not excluded for content, then that rationale simple becomes "I wanna parse higher". And in fact, not only is bard not excluded, it is the ONLY dps most groups REQUIRE in their groups.

No one in 20 pages has articulated 1 rational reason bards NEED to do more damage. Only that they want it, because groups are happily accepting bards at their current damage levels and still requiring them.

The 2nd point being how MUCH to buff them, and that is an entirely subjective fight too, but it isn't even worth discussing until anyone can justify WHY they need it in the 1st place.

[Snugglebutt]

No one in 20 pages has articulated 1 rational reason bards NEED to do more damage. Only that they want it, because groups are happily accepting bards at their current damage levels and still requiring them.

The 2nd point being how MUCH to buff them, and that is an entirely subjective fight too, but it isn't even worth discussing until anyone can justify WHY they need it in the 1st place.

Your on very shaky ground if try pulling the need argument because need and want are so intrinsically intertwined based on personal desires.

I know of SMNs and DRGs who also do end game raids, are part of statics therefore since others of that class are also used in statics for end game content (even though not as popular) means perhaps they do not 'need' to be buffed for that purpose, perhaps they just 'need' to try harder to find/create statics that want/willing to use them. I may not believe in that stance but it's the same principle your arguing, that of a need vs personal desire when in reality there is very little difference between the two to improve your own playing experience. Feel free to explain where you draw the line in the sand between need and want. Another example is Echo for example is not needed according to the elitists, but it sure as hell makes playing a lot more enjoyable for the majority of players and helps them. Is it fundamentally needed though? No, not according to some, but to others yes...need vs want is a dubious argument.

My point is the need excuse is a slippery slope because the boundaries between need and want overlap to a huge extent, do people who want SMNs and DRG buffed want it for a guaranteed spot in raid statics? Is that need or a want to be more popular? There are 8 spaces in such raids and if every class based their 'need' on a guaranteed spot in that static there is not enough spots for every class especially with 3 more classes incoming. SE would have to completely remake 8 man raids increasing the size of raid parties to fulfill that need or more accurately desire/want by people. Bards themselves are not needed in statics, they are wanted quite often because make things easier while training. The need excuse is a flimsy one at best as most come down to nothing more than want and not need at all.

There is actually very little in this game that is needed and need for the most part is very subjective from individual to individual, most of the things people ask for anywhere on these forums are things they 'want' because would improve their playing experience in some way, but not fundamentally needed. This situation is no different to me. Your basing your argument on why do we need it when most of the things people want on these entire forums and game are not needed, they are subjective wants and desires to improve peoples personal playing experiences so how about listing why our suggestions 'need' to be ignored and why shouldn't we have some of the suggestions implemented...because outside of the hyperbolic and melodramatic claims of being overpowered, none of the suggestions I have seen would lead to such a situation so they have no merit to me and by proxy are not valid excuses to why those suggestions need to be ignored in my opinion.

My argument personally in this thread is not that we need it per se, I do however want it and there is little to no reason good enough given so far as to why we shouldn't have some of these suggested changes made. Most of the reasons against are people being melodramatic in how much would affect balance or party dynamics since no one is saying we should DPS output the same as the top tier DPS classes, but we also shouldn't ideally be as low as currently are either. The continued disparity between our WD and other classes also should ideally be fixed. Needed? Debatable and very subjective but so is almost everything people want on here. I want some minor tweaks to improve the class, not a major overhaul to make them overpowered.

Thread closed.

Thread re-opened.

All the other persons post did was sound good, in reality it means little to nothing when delve deeper into the logic behind it. It's a politician style response, sounds good but doesn't really mean much if put to the test and explore it. Even I paused for thought because sounded good but didn't hold much water when thought about it some more. So kudos to him for making an interesting point but on reflection it doesn't have much substance to it.

[AkashiXI]

I'm not talking about hardcore players with melded gear. Show me a parse of a BLM hitting over 500 in T10 that's not 130 or melded out? I had 440 in T10 last night, which I think is good for a more casual raider not using pots. But this is all irrelevant to the thread and my point being that if BRDs did as much damage as other classes then there'd be little reason to bring the other dps classes.

(I didn't bring up those previous numbers for epeen purposes, they were humble dps numbers from that week's raid night to use as an average example. But congrats to you?)

Edit: Okay, Akashi, understandable. I'm just saying I disagree that Bards need a buff despite that.

There is weight to posting dps numbers. You brought up those numbers because you said you're close to your good (read: the literal term you used) Caster in terms of damage. I put up my numbers because I'm more close to the actual difference between casters and Bards.

Also, the reason we talk about optimal conditions is the same reason why Square felt it was necessary to nerf Ninja: the glass ceiling. Yoshida thought it would be near impossible to optimize ninja's rotation, but quickly found out that the player base was excelling at it. That's why it irks me when mindless drones of posters come in and say, "maybe you should play bard better!" ....No. I play Bard near optimal in every turn, and no amount of skill will close this increasingly bigger gap between other dps. But hey, you can switch to BLM if you want better dps, and I to Ninja, right? Right.

[AkashiXI]

All the arguments in this thread are terribly arbitrary and the justification is weak.

1st off: WHY does bard need a buff? Because they are excluded from content? (Like melees before their buff. Or drg even after melee buff. Or smn now etc) nope. Brd is not currently excluded. They are required in every raid group. I also have never heard of a bard in a static getting booted after its on farm status. Ever. That is a hypothetical argument that doesn't actually happen. No one can even answer the WHY with anything except "we do less damage than other jobs". But if bard is not excluded for content, then that rationale simple becomes "I wanna parse higher". And in fact, not only is bard not excluded, it is the ONLY dps most groups REQUIRE in their groups.

No one in 20 pages has articulated 1 rational reason bards NE ED to do more damage. Only that they want it, because groups are happily accepting bards at their current damage levels and still requiring them.

The 2nd point being how MUCH to buff them, and that is an entirely subjective fight too, but it isn't even worth discussing until anyone can justify WHY they need it in the 1st place.

You don't wait until a car completely breaks down until you bring it into the shop. If your engine light is blinking, you figure out why. The weapon damage issue is like a huge red light saying, "HEY, SOMETHING'S WRONG", and we've given you plenty of reasons to think so. Would you like the answer in braille too?

[Sessurea]

Take 2-nd bard. Better not.

An awesome bard who can focus on dps and have no duties or damage hurting singing to do? Ur looking at 450+ dps at least. I wouldn't say no to this. It isn't as if you will not clear a piece of content by taking a 2nd bard friend along. We do decent damage afterall. brd pugs generally do better than melee pugs anyways, due to being easier to play xD ( never gonna forget that nin pulling under 300 in t11 )

If u got maybe a brd/brd/drg/blm combo? Then that blm is getting twice the foe requiem and battlevoice and the drg is buffing twice the bard. But brd/brd/blm/any melee would work ofc.

Arguing class stacking is interesting but in reality never happens, due to loot share anyways.