Idea regarding A & S Rank Hunts

[Zedd702]

Right, if there is no "discovering early", howcome there will be "pulling early" ?

Pulling early and discovering early (which does not exist btw) are different things...

IMO the "pulling early" usually just means pulled before you want, so "discovery early" simply just means discovered (triggered the battle) before you want.

It's not about you, it's about everyone. Discovering is just that. Discovering.... You don't choose when you discover something, you just do.

Conceptually the suggestion makes sense. Think about this:

You are a miner gathering whatever it is you gather. You run across a vicious beast (hunt discovered), You cry for help and take up arms to defend yourself (swap class and auto message appears on the screens to all players on the map), they come to your aid and the fight commences...

This "discovering early" you refer to is not a valid argument against the suggestion I am making. Or perhaps you are trying to say something else, in which case I may not correctly understand the point you are trying to make...?

[Wintersandman]

I think you have forget the long queue at the BCNM entrance... ^^;

I never did BCNM's in FFXI. Maybe I am just thinking on the standard NM's. Whoever claimed it first won.

[tocsin]

snip...

the point they are likely trying to make is the same one SE already made. There is no such thing as "pulling early". Hunts were not designed to be server wide events. they were designed to be Brank = solo, A rank = 8 man, S rank = 24 man. anything more than that, is using them not as intended. If you have this number of people, you CAN kill it, which means the minimum amount of time before you should, by definition, be pulling has been reached.

We, as a community, have caused this issue. the solution, by strict standards, would be to restrict mapping of the mob, and disable the ability to announce hunts to LS's or shouts. make it so only the party or alliance that found the mark can attack the mark. this would not only eliminate the issue, but effectively let hunts work as they were originally intended.

[Zedd702]

-snip-

I get what you are saying with this response, but that is not what I am getting from Nicobo...

I don't complain about early pulling as it's very vague and you can't really determine what an early pull actually is. IMHO I feel others that say early pulling apply it as though someone did not wait for the person that said "Please wait. I'm almost there." and then the fight is over when they get there. I don't really define that as an "early pull."

Basically what I am getting at is there is really no such thing as an early pull, but even less existence of discovering early...

However I am trying to move forward with a solution vs all the unnecessary rage and drama with people claiming not waiting for every person that hollers "wait"

The suggestion I'm making would technically allow some time for others to actually get there and if they don't by the time the lockout circle disappears and enough people are there to beat it, then they can't blame no one but themselves for not getting there in time.

[Nicobo]

....This "discovering early" you refer to is not a valid argument against the suggestion I am making. Or perhaps you are trying to say something else, in which case I may not correctly understand the point you are trying to make...?

I am not trying to argue anything with you.
But since your OP states that "because it was a thread where people were pretty much talking about pulling early etc"
therefore it leaded me to think you made the suggestion to resolve "pulling early".

So I just want to say, if we agree "early pull" is an issue,
and then by reviewing some players behavior, I foresee they will just blame others when "the fight is started before they want".

For example, even you discovered a mob as a miner, call the world, wait 30min, eventually a perosn just returned from a dungeon and rush to the mob, but he is locked out, very likely he will /sh outside and blame ppl "early whatever". ^^;

So regardless how good of your suggestion, I don't think it will resolved the "early pull symdrome".


In addition, your lockout idea conficts with the original design of hunting.
By reviewing YoshiP's messages, hunting is designed as "anyone can join at anytime" intentionally, and explicitly said that players can do hunt without restriction.
So I would think for example, other than you scout and find the mobs, you may just walk over unintentionally and see some ppl are fighting a mob, you can join and help like joining a FATE. I believe this situation should be more closed to the intentional design.

The main problem of lockout is, the lockout (battle field) must be triggered by something, for example, someone aggro (head pull) the mob. Unless you suggest "see it" then trigger the battle field, otherwise the starting time of discovering(starting of the battle field) is controllable as long as no one has triggered the event. Right? That's why I said "ealy discovery" bcoz it should be controllable.

Even someone unintentionally aggro, and triggered the battle filed, then he should be able to escape from the "lock out zone" immediatley or he will be sent back to HP after being killed. ^^; and then, how about the mob? It shoud be sitting there and waiting for another "discovery". In other words, the lockout battle should be resettable, just like ppl resetting a mob, then it is predictable ppl will /sh "PTs incoming, reset the fight" .

[Nicobo]

I never did BCNM's in FFXI. Maybe I am just thinking on the standard NM's. Whoever claimed it first won.

ic, in FFXI, BCNM = Burnning Circle Notorious Monstor
In short, there were some entrances namely Burning Circle in the world, usually located at the ends of the map so players need to spend around 30min to reach it. Players need to trade an rare-ex-item to enter the fight. This item is obtained by trading some token item with a npc in the town. Therefore a 6ppl PT may have 6 fights as each person trade one time.

However, the BC has "room" limitation, it only allows a few fights to be carried out simultaneously.
Therefore very often, a PT arrives the BC after 30min travelling, and find that there are many PT waiting to enter the BC. And very often this PT need to wait for an hour or more until their turn to fight.

Ofcoz, when the game was new, some players just kept spam trading item to the BC until they could get in (with drama). But some time later, everyone became polite and queue up automatically. ^^;

[Zedd702]

The main problem of lockout is, the lockout (battle field) must be triggered by something, for example, someone aggro (head pull) the mob. Unless you suggest "see it" then trigger the battle field, otherwise the starting time of discovering(starting of the battle field) is controllable as long as no one has triggered the event. Right? That's why I said "ealy discovery" bcoz it should be controllable.

Even someone unintentionally aggro, and triggered the battle filed, then he should be able to escape from the "lock out zone" immediatley or he will be sent back to HP after being killed. ^^; and then, how about the mob? It shoud be sitting there and waiting for another "discovery". In other words, the lockout battle should be resettable, just like ppl resetting a mob, then it is predictable ppl will /sh "PTs incoming, reset the fight" .

Now I understand what you are saying.

However every idea, change, whether nerf or buff ALWAYS conflicts with the "original" idea of x design... that's why it's called a change.

There would be nothing different with the hunt other than the lockout/protect buff circle for a short period of time. After that the monster would be free game (basically everything else remains the same as it is now).

I don't really participate in hunts as my load times in to zones can be a little longer than others sometime for some unknown reason as everything else runs smoothly, but when I run across one I will call it out to my hunt LS and FC and then participate. But as is I don't want to be the one to inconvenience others because my load and travel time and I am sure others get his issue too and it's even a little worse after this recent hotfix.

Something like what I am suggesting would give players a little breathing room for errors like that as well as allowing players to get there without crying about the "early pull" as if they could not make in those couple of minutes before everyone is organized and ready to pull, then that would mean you just need to wait on the next hunt.

[Nicobo]

Now I understand what you are saying.....

Sorry for confusing you before, english is not my native language ^^;
Actually I agree you were trying to improve HUNT by good suggestion, at the first place I just wanted to say "early pull" is an arguable condition.
Regarding the original idea/design, I don't object make changes, but I just don't see they will make it,
because for this case, I think "the original idea/design" should be an important factor, reason as follows.


Before HUNT implementation, there were ppl requesting "sociable open world content" which was referring to NMs fight. Btw, there were also some discussions about open world NM would be claim-able or not, at this stage I understood that some requester's "sociable open world content" actually referred to "playing with their friends" but not with strangers.

And eventually HUNT was created to fulfill this request, maybe not exclusively for this request, but they said HUNT would be the solution for this request. However, the non-preemptive NMs fight was not what those requesters want to have, but nevermind, most ppl have forgot the association between "sociable open world content request" and "the HUNT", and now players mainly focus on "reward of hunting" and "unsuccessfully hunting".

TBH, I objected to the whole hunting when it first implemented, because I have foreseen these problems.
However, one day I read a post which I was not expected, I read many ppl who appeared rarely posting, they said HUNT was fun and like it.
And then new patch released, all NM marks became alone, until this patch, the cycle restarted, ^^;

[Milleus]

the current hunt system is all about hunting smart and actively hunting.
if you're not doing either of these, then you're basically punished with "being slow".

although your suggestions are interesting, it would also mean that you'll end up rewarding people for.. well, doing nothing but waiting for links in LS.
i'm not sure if this would be something SE wants to adopt; rewarding people for doing nothing.

keep in mind that SE did intentionally "hide" hunt mobs by not making it into fates or having world wide announcements.
they want us to work for it, and thus the ones that do so are rewarded.
hunt links in LS are really just "acts of kindness" by active hunters, which may have given the impression that hunt mobs are meant to be server wide events but in reality they are not.

[Iagainsti]

I'm an avid hunter, loved the idea since patch notes, was a long time player on FFXI and I was excited to hear that FFXIV would have NMs randomly spawning. Wicked.
That in mind, the system is flawed, but, for better or worse, no point changing it now. If you want more "instanced" content, request SE to add more Guildhests before changing the Hunt. Sure, they drop Carbontwine, but it's no different when Oil was available and everyone was grinding Hunts for their 110's. I'm part of 4 Hunt LS and an avid submitter, I still miss hunts. On Zalera we try to make it fair for everyone involved, but sometimes that is not the case, and ppl lose out. Instead of stiff upper lipping it like an adult, ppl /shout expletives and act like immature brats, kind of like this thread. Call it what you want, disguise it as an "Idea" but this is comparative to that person missing out and crying about it. They're random content, if you miss one or do not get full rewards, suck it up, look for the next hunt.