I think its time BRD get some loving

[Snugglebutt]

Guess we should buff every class then, go team!

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'team' excuse.

The team does not benefit from the debuff, the team is not a valid excuse.

[Kuwagami]

I find it ironic that many of the people against removal of this debuff care less about 'the team' when nerfs, debuffs and buffs of their own class comes up in discussions and threads...but all of sudden becomes about 'the team' when it's another persons class being discussed. Here is a fun fact for you, the 'team' is not negatively impacted by the removal of the debuff. It increases the DPS (slightly) from the bard while still benefiting the team by way of boosting their DPS and survivability, so if you care about the team as much as you claim then you would be for the removal and not for keeping it.

fun fact, I'm a bard whenever I'm not tanking (though I've been playing DRG more and more as the bard spot is taken in my group, but that's an other story) so I perfectly understand what's the subject here.

What you do NOT understand here is that the damage reduction (which isn't that big by your own words) is way justified by their overwhelming utility. Top bards have what, 400-450 dps at max ? while singing, it drops to 320-360 for a minute or so (if singing a regen of course), while increasing melees's dps by a lot (Paeon adds 30 TP per tick, which is half the normal regen, diminishing the probability that they'll end up TP-starved). The dps loss of the bard is totally neglictible in regards to the dps increase of the melees not being TP starved.
(disclaimer : it's not a raw dps increase for melees as their nmbers aren't higher, but they are able to maintain dps longer, which is indeed a dps increase throughout the fight)

the MP regen is a bit more touchy, but in the end, it's the difference between losing 20% of the bard's dps or losing the fight. The choice is clear imo. And even if only your SMN needs it, what is losing 80-90 dps when compared to losing 400+ if the SMN is MP-starved ?


That is balance. Bards bring an insane utility to the group, thus their dps is nerfed compared to others in terms of raw numbers. And truly, if your team needs such a slight increase to be able to beat content, you might want to check if the other dps aren't slacking.

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'team' excuse.

The team does not benefit from the debuff, the team is not a valid excuse.

the team benefits from the spell. you get the debuff for providing such a good utility.


TL;DR : this game is designed around team DPS during an entire fight. your dps loss means a team dps increase overall, and that increased dps is within dev's view on what the team dps should be. If it bothers you, go play an other job and see how your group is doing without bringing any bard at all.

[Ehayte]

snip

T1 - Yeah you can kite them just stay less than 1 hexagon away, you can still get out of hitbox range if you have any skill whatsoever
T8 - Tether/BJ are typically lumped together so that that person isn't also responsible for feeding a tower. BK wasn't really my point I was just naming the job for the fight.
T9 - You have to move it to feed it...
T10 - Can have the BRD pick one up while the others are getting finished so that you can DPS the MTs down first. Its something I've seen done but I will concede its not common. So... ok.
T11 - Most groups don't spread into an octagon around the boss though? Most have healers/BRD back off while BLM/melee/melee spread?
T12 - But their DPS is effected much less than any other classes moving to Bluefire and then to redfire, and if they can wait long enough they can minimize the dmg debuff better than any other class.

Sure, arguably any job could do those things, but my point is that BRD's dps is effected the least. Its just another advantage that they have. Go have a NIN/BLM/DRG/MNK or even SMN do any of those jobs and tell me what the raid DPS loss is versus having a BRD do it.

[Snugglebutt]

The team benefits from the spell. you get the debuff for providing such a good utility.

My point is the debuff does not need to exist, it does not balance the teams in any significant way whatsoever as player skill, gear and rotations do a million times more for balancing than a debuff on skills that one class uses who might be present. The increase in DPS gained from not having that debuff is as you admit not significant and there are negative consequences for not having that debuff on the teams ability to clear content. The debuff serves no more purpose than slapping someone in the face for baking you a cake metaphorically.

The team would be no worse off without the debuff, it has zero impact on mobility with or without it, the increase in DPS overall would not be that big without it and the debuff does not add much at all if anything towards the balance of the fights. Any balance it might have had is undone completely by the randomness of quality of peoples rotations, player skills and gear quality or party composition. It's as balancing as throwing a pie in a pretty boys face just because he's pretty simply out of spite in my opinion.

[Tiggy]

I disagree, there may be outliers or some who do extremely good damage but those few do not make up a vast majority of people who play bards. Those that are within that category generally have to work harder to make up for the lackluster gear stats SE throw our way and many of the skill stats compared to some other DPS classes whom have better DPS gear quality and better designed skill stats. I do not believe it will make bards overpowered at all to remove the %damage debuff on the songs while playing those songs. The party dynamic will not change, it will not increase or decrease the amount of spots bards fill, it will simply increase slightly the DPS output of most bards while not being overpowered at all.

I'm sorry but you're absolutely wrong here. I have a perfect example too. Remember when the Ninja nerf happened? They explicitly said that they use dummies and party damage to find out how players are performing. In the case of the Ninja that explicitly said the best players were getting more damage out of the class than they wanted. Therefore we got the ninja nerf. They used the best players exclusively to make that decision. Not the average of players. Not the range of damage among players. Specifically they used the best players. So yes, they will balance the class around those top end "outlier" players and we have solid proof that it's how they do things based on recent history.

Also, I have to completely disagree that it won't change party dynamics, but this one could go either way. Without the debuff to damage bards would jump in personal damage but maintain their utility. We would quickly see all bard parties appearing that chain their songs along for great effect. You can't have these top end players doing massive damage and singing the whole time with no penalty.

In general though you are very much underestimating what a good bard can do.

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the 'team' excuse.

The team does not benefit from the debuff, the team is not a valid excuse.

Of course they don't get a benefit from a debuff. No one does so that doesn't make sense to argue that point. It's not all about the debuff. It's not like you just get a debuff with nothing to show for it either. To ignore what a bard can do for the team is ignorant of what they bring to a party and ignorant of what they are capable of. Your suggestions would imbalance the game and are bad for the game. You clearly don't care about game balance. You clearly only care about your own epeen.

My point is the debuff does not need to exist, it does not balance the teams in any significant way

Yes, it absolutely does. Our bard specifically chooses the times for singing because of the debuff. They choose times where the damage isn't as necessary to push a phase, or kill an add fast enough. It completely changes the party dynamic for how the buffs are used and when. Saying it won't changes how the dynamic works over and over won't suddenly make that mantra reality. In several of the final coil fights right off the top of my head I know moments where this suggested change would change the way our bard and therefore our party tackles the situation. I know you're wrong because I'm out there living it and doing it. Seeing you repeat it over and over won't negate my real world experience that tells me without a shadow of a doubt that you are wrong.

[KitanaiKoneko]

So me playing paeon means I get a portion of a melee's damage also then?
Playing ballad means Im gaining some healing too?

Buffing someone DOES NOT = The Damage gain is suddenly yours. Does it get added to my parse? newp, sure doesn't. That is quite possibly the dumbest concept I have ever heard.

A buff is a buff is a buff -- the concepts of buffs have not changed, nor will they ever.

Asking to remove the penalty from paeon and ballad also DOES NOT = bards OP -- we arent playing paeon and ballad 24/7

Why should we stop the strawman there?
Healers actually do ALL of the dps AND all of the tanking in any fight with unavoidable damage, since they keep the party alive, right?

[Aerowaffle]

At this point, especially since the game developer has advocated against dps tracking, why is it such a big deal to have high damage output on all dps classes?

If the things die, then the goal is achieved. Bard helps the group through various utility (mana song, tp song, and emergency rez level 3 limit break in a pinch if healers have died). Bard also has the advantage that we're both mobile damage (no cast times besides songs) and we're ranged, so Bard can be applying damage at more times then any other class.

A dps contributing to the group does not always have to be in pure damage output.

[Tiggy]

At this point, especially since the game developer has advocated against dps tracking, why is it such a big deal to have high damage output on all dps classes?

Just because they advocate not using dps tracking doesn't mean they are so ignorant to think people don't use them and to design the game in a way that ignores them. Also, more damage means bosses die faster making coil and other tough content even easier. The class imbalances exist for reasons.

[SendohJin]

Buffing someone DOES NOT = The Damage gain is suddenly yours. Does it get added to my parse? newp, sure doesn't. That is quite possibly the dumbest concept I have ever heard.

so don't sing Paeon, let's see how your parse relative to them gets at that point. your only objective is to get your parse number closer to the other DPS right?

[Snugglebutt]

Of course they don't get a benefit from a debuff. No one does so that doesn't make sense to argue that point. It's not all about the debuff. It's not like you just get a debuff with nothing to show for it either. To ignore what a bard can do for the team is ignorant of what they bring to a party and ignorant of what they are capable of. Your suggestions would imbalance the game and are bad for the game. You clearly don't care about game balance. You clearly only care about your own epeen.

Your basing your principle of balance on what a few are capable of in your comment and not what the majority are doing. A game should be balanced for the majority and not the few or the outliers. So to me you care less about balance than I do because your coming at it in a flawed way.