Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Xisin]

to say that e4e should only be up 15 seconds before a big hit isn't optimal. You can plan around it regardless and still have it up quite a bit. Overlapping utility is going to be a thing for you... technically it isn't overlapping since e4e comes from your base class... Overlap will always exists for your job due to being an arcanist, the same can be said for scholar.

This thread, and overall reaction from the summoner community is an overreaction. the dps comparisons in here at one one point where exaggerated, and so are the utility comparisons.

Really, all summoners need to be up to speed is a separate set of gear with no ss OR a rework for spell speed on smn. Then reduce mp costs across the board while making energy drain still relevant. Finally, give them a different passive other than a lame pet based spell speed proc. Done. summoner is fixed. Summoners do not need potency added to their kits... For PvE tri disaster could use something but pvp summoners would like to keep it.

[Sen_Terrechant]

I think 95% of what people are asking for here is a fix for our mana issues. Yet even if you fix those we still fall behind on damage.

So you think its fair for BLM to have better single target, better AoE, equal/more utility if you dont count battlerez, while having infinite mana? Uh huh, okay

[Xisin]

I actually did mention the eye for an eye and blm circumstances, skim reading is bad. smn get 33% more uptime on e4e, it's quite nice.


smn mobility doesn't infer using ruin 2, losing 300 damagish isnt that big of a deal on a movement its far far less of a deal than losing 1100 damage

I'll make a list to make things a bit clearer:

SMN utility:

* unique dps Resurrect (I can argue my apoc doesn't matter anymore too, cause well I don't have to use it in my static... at all, but shit happens so I do.)

*70-80% dps uptime on cc lock (SMN UNIQUE utility btw) this includes, blue orbs, titan goals, twintania blues, ramuh tethers + stun, leviathan dives, turn 8 missles, turn 7 shreik... you get it the list goes on and on and on. I guess you can say schs are capable of this as well.. but yea, not quite the same thing as you are different archetypes , this is pretty much our manaward/wall usage... almost... different but equal... well except this doesnt actually have a cooldown and is just the job being the job

* higher mobility, summoners have at worst 70-80% uptime on move and at best 100% I don't see how this is a arguable, it isnt based on rng either... its fairly free range try doing savage 8 for example and hitting snowflakes tower... if I'm bound as blm I sometimes lose my umbral/astral even @.@

* smn eye for an eye is better @ 33% more uptime

* smn virus is better

* pet helps with splitting damage from hits like twintana fireball darnus beam etc

BLM has:

lesser e4e
lesser virus
apoc
manawall/ward
proc movement
aetherial manipulation but ya you can just walk
both jobs have sprint?

the damage difference is not 12% without procs, that was proven wrong

[Minorinz]

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BLM has higher single target and AOE ATM in FCoB, like that alone is too much. Could you please link me a single parse where a SMN could top a BLM on any fight in FCoB? It's just too obvious like lol
EDIT: I forgot to mention that mana issues alone won't solve the problem as it should be. Unless utility is OP that the dps difference will make sense, like the case with bards.

[Xisin]

The argument vivi, is that with such thing available to smn it is incredibly easy to break them. DoT classes are traditionally designed as multi taskers to begin with, you are supposed to be multi-tasking, its what dots do really well. And as a previous poster has brought up, frankly;y summoner doesn't really multi task to the point that they can, you kinda just fill the holes in with ruin (some is ok, but maybe down to the core design it needs something else here?) The biggest thing I want fixed on summoner before potency is upped is itemization and then mp. Potency shouldn't be bothered with atm. After those changes happen then, let's take a second look. Like I've said multiple times though useless passives are no fun and you should be at least granted an ability there.

I actually did some napkin math and found that summoners get 2 more eye for an eye activations over the course of 13:30 (average lets say t13) that's at minimum 40 more seconds of -10% overall reduction, that very well could reach over a minute too. That is at least 2 flattens, some flare stars a megaflare and perhaps even a gigaflare, and ahk morn for sure over the course of the fight.

And yes I seriously suggested that, it's survivability utility (so much so that i've seen ragers in t5 pugs over it rofl), and yes I know the pet is a double edged sword at times, but it's more often a boon than a bane.

BTW I'm by no means offended by these guys, this kind of stuff is fun for me. Not that I'm arguing for the sake of it either, I'm fairly passionate about my blm.

[ViviAnimus]

Yes, but that does not mean it can't have a fix. My suggestion is to make Fester more powerful to give better sustain and not affect the uptime. That is all that I am suggesting buff wise and the management of MP. That's not game breaking, that's common sense. But yes, I do agree with you on those front.

1. Stat optimization
2. MP management
3. Fester buff

The pet is not more often a boon than a bane. It's just there as a DPS and even that it sometimes doesn't do well (the AI can be horrible). The one example you gave about soaking up damage it easily negated by the fact that the pet can die very easily in certain fights, when you die, your pet dies and you have to resummon and when you disconnect it's the same thing. Yes, it can be your own fault, but the pet isn't amazing, at all.

[Xisin]

as a summoner myself at times we can both agree that garuda/ifrit is dumb and could use some QoL changes.

[Romsca]

lets put this argument to bed. Black mage is king of the magic damage.

Summoner; Shadowflare, Bio, Bio 2, Miasma and Miasma 2 comes to 145 potency per 3 seconds. Summoner must maintain uptime by recasting. Ruin is 80 potency per 2.5 seconds.
Pets are just glorified dots, Ifrit 120pot/3 seconds, Garuda 100pot/4 seconds.

Black Mage: strip away astral fire stacks you can dish 240 potency every 3.5 seconds (fire 3/blizz 3). and you can maintain that infinitely.

Our bio is a total of 240 potency over 18 seconds. Black mage dishes that out in 3.5 seconds with blizz 3 and fire 3. Just strip umbral ice mp regen boost, increase potency of fire spells and increase cast times of all your spells. See how you do then.

Summoners are good pressure dps. But the flaw is they run out of mp in long fights maintaining that pressure then have to lower our dps by using energy drain. Just increase the Piety>MP so summoner is sitting at 4k or more instead of 3k.

PS; just realized I was putting 2.5 for blizz3/fire3 cast time. corrected it to 3.5.

[scarebearz]

lets put this argument to bed. Black mage is king of the magic damage.

And Magic Damage is the King of what?

If SMN's actually want to show how weak they are, would be much better to list comparisions to the other DPS classes, rather than trying to make BLM out to be some super over-powered class lol.

With our "infinate resources" we still get thrashed by melee in end-game content :P


If they gave the SMN job-stone additional Piety increase (mp + mp regain), that would probably solve most of the issues with MP and bring their DPS back on par, without buffing SCH.

[Minorinz]

I think it should give Xisin some room to think that even though Summoner has all this uptime, it still gets outdamaged. Your argument about uptime is useless as long as the damage is still lower on pretty much every single front or every single fight. The perfect example on endgame is that SMN during earth shaker and megaflare and all the other stuff that makes you move or unable to attack should give Summoner a distinct advantage. But tell me a Summoner that has ended T13 with 540 DPS, you'll find no Summoner that does that. So yeah, uptime, great argument.
Are you seriously suggesting that in T5 the utility is that you could soak damage with your pet? Thanks a lot for that utility, SE! Never mind that you get shat on in Shiva and shat on in T10 and shat on in other turns with your pet. Never mind that.

Exactly. 10/10.

Heavy movement "should" be giving summoner some edge. Also, this "advantage of mobility" talk is much cancer. Even if summoners had an advantage on mobility, why the eff aren't they even close to topping a blackmage's maximum output even on t13, you know what, forget about topping just close enough to theirs or even melee. If summoner's utility really counted for something then not so sure of why the current playerbase is being biased. right. utility. riiiight.