Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[ViviAnimus]

Judge Xero has determined that the damage of a BLM is around 12% higher than SMN. I wouldn't say 12 from my experience, but I would at least go for 10%. The intial Summoner burst is higher than BLM, I would say, but sustained, BLM will have quite a higher number. I am a T13 clearer and BLM / SMN, to claim that those who ask for a buff don't know how to play summoner is ignorant and stupid. I see you have clared it too and you have a good BLM to compare yourself to?
BLM has higher AoE damage, higher ST damage and better utility. It's not a matter of the DPS being fine anyway (THINK FFS), it's a matter of the DPS being the weakest by quite a margin in comparison to the rest but BRDS

[Judge_Xero]

WTF is 12% higher potency? Where do u get those numbers. Aetherflow 30s would make scholar too OP.
Most of the summoners crying here just have no clue how to play. DPS is fine, just fix pet AI and slightly less mana cost on skills and we are good to go. Maybe slight potency increase because BLM utility is much better (dont even start about combat ress).

I think it was from some rough calculations I did a while back to try to pinpoint the actual difference between BLM and SMN.

Taking their average rotations it was around

SMN 118 Potency/s - Includes AA Damage
BLM 130 Potency/s (completely ignoring Thunder/Firestarter Procs)
(only a 10% difference)
Pre-BLM buff Black Mage was closer to 115 Potency/s (not including Thunder/Fire Starter)


Edited: Lol Vivi. You beat me

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The nice thing about BLM buffs is that it brought it closer to Melee damage, without being too OP compared to Melee.

But it does leave SMN behind. At the rate of DPS increase per/ iLVL it would take quite the specialized fight for SMN damage to compare, considering the only way for it to catch up is multidotting and/or boss downtime.

@ 37 Potency/s for SMN Dots - Difference between SMN and BLM Potency 12/s

37/12
- So SMN would need either 32% of a fight with Boss Downtime where it's Dots are ticking throughout the fight. (downtime where BLM can't attack)

37 - 4 -12 (casting dots vs Ruin) = 21/12 -
- Or about 50% of a fight where it is able to Multidot - where BLM can't AOE.

[Romsca]

When I said give summoner piety on their gear, I meant make a separate gear set that is summoner only and add in some extra piety along with the other stats. healer gear comes with 5 stats, caster has 4. I didn't say this would fix summoners issues, I said it would be a simple fix to the MP drain. Or just alter summoners piety>MP conversion.

Personally I would like to see tri-disasters effect scrapped and move festers to tri-disaster and balance the MP cost and cooldown. Then move contagion to fester, make it increase duration by 10 seconds instead of 15. Make contagion a 5 target bane on a 60 second cooldown. Also drop radiant shield off Ifrit and make a new skill, call it swelter and it would increase the potency of running dots for say 10 seconds.

[Xisin]

Those numbers are off, you are (and I just mathed it myself) ignoring ice phase. I honestly challenge any blm on here to beat a good summoner without using firestarters and thunderclouds.

170 * 1.8 = 306
306/2.3 = 133.04
That is blms 600-700 dps fire phase you are mathing. (that dps is including an adequate amount of procs.)

Let's look at ice phase.

Blizz 3 240 potency @ Af 3 = 240 *.7 = 168 (gcd is still 2.3 in this example)
168/2.3 = 73.04

Blizz 1 @ 170 potency = 170/2.3 = 73.91

Thunder 1/2 (lets do T1 since you know its the most common) 30 potency on application 40 per tick for 12 seconds (so on cast 30 potency 30/2.3 =13.04) overtime duration = 160 potency + 30 on initial = 190 potency which adds up to 190/2.3 =82.6 potency for thunder TOTAL.)

finally fire 3 with UI3 = 240 potency with UI (its the same as AF3 Blizzz) it has gcd on it too so the cast time is moot other than just for the sake of making sure the spell resolves.) =73.04 potency

adding this up:

73.04+73.91+82.6+73.04=302.59 potency over the course of 9.2 seconds so 75.64 potency per second in ice phase. quite good no? (this is including thunder ticks during fire phase, it's lower if you calculate impact damage only.)

Fire phase is 133 potency per second for ATLEAST 5 gcds.

so forsaking procs altogether

we have 133 potency per second for 2.3 * 5 seconds (11.5 seconds)
and 75.64 potency per second for 3-4 gcds (6.9 minimum, 9.2 max) (AGAIN I cannot stress this enough, this is including the thunder ticks during fire phase.)

it's safe to say those numbers are off, and that the ice phase was overlooked in those calculations.

Again spell speed is the biggest offender.

[ViviAnimus]

All you have to do is spend time on a dummy and you will soon realise SMN is quite a bit behind after BLM regardless of procs.

[Xisin]

just saying 10% w/o procs is flat wrong in single target lol.
Firestarters and Thunderclouds add quite a bit + flare is a bit more, but since this is single target I didn't bother with it, but I can. its one cast @ Raging strikes (Both summoners and blm have access to RS so cancel it out.) every 3 mins at 260 *1.8 = 468 potency. Fine I'll add it. 468/180 = 2.6 more potency per second.
And I don't think, so. Go try it out in i115 weapons (HA) with identical gear (assorted i130) (admittedly I didn't really test it much so feel free here.) I came back with about 20dpsish difference. and that's with procs.

[Judge_Xero]

I'm no BLM, so when I looked at it I did a simple rotation of

B3, T2, F3, FX5, B3, T2, F3, Fx5 etc

240, 295, 240, 306 X 5, 240, 295, 240, 306 X 5 etc

I figured the increased cast speed of F3 would compensate close enough for the potency loss of UI.
I asked in another thread for a main BLM to do up some numbers but to no avail.

So I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it's not 100% accurate (I think when I did it I actually used the T3 values for T2)

Because even looking that simple rotation it's only ~126 Potency/s

[ViviAnimus]

In my finding I found with both 115 weapons that the BLM has around 30-40 more DPS on an ST. AoE, we shouldn't even be discussing of course since that one is very obvious. Of course, once you actually optimize the stats for SMN, the gap will be a lot closer or maybe not even existing. However, another issue I have encountered is that BLM sustains a lot better than a SMN. It would seem that SMN for me drops to around even 50 DPS lower than BLM

[Judge_Xero]

In my finding I found with both 115 weapons that the BLM has around 30-40 more DPS on an ST. AoE, we shouldn't even be discussing of course since that one is very obvious. Of course, once you actually optimize the stats for SMN, the gap will be a lot closer or maybe not even existing. However, another issue I have encountered is that BLM sustains a lot better than a SMN. It would seem that SMN for me drops to around even 50 DPS lower than BLM

Yeah, with an i115 weapon the most I could sustain over 8 minutes was around 425 DPS (Ifrit). I don't even play BLM and I could do 450.

That's why I ended up looking to the Enhanced Pet Trait. Because once SMN damage falls to a certain point, all you can do is sustain it with no hopes of an increase.
I really think that the pet trait was meant to be "Increase Casting Speed by 20%" as more Ruin casts is really the only option to increase SMN static damage.

24% Crit on Ifrit means ~5% Chance to proc the Enhance Pet Action. That's 2 X 3s Due to AA + Skill being able to proc it.

60s = 40 Attacks - Average Chance to proc = 3 X Minute @ 8s = 24 Seconds/Min that SMN could have <2 Cast time

So you could get an extra 160 Potency/Min at least.

Up to the point where you have 60% Crit Rate
12% Chance for Enhanced Pet - 6-7 Procs (48s-56s of Enhanced Pet) So nearly 100%

24 Casts vs 30 (6 X 80 = 480 Potency from Ruins)

What would we see from the current system?

100% up time of 20% spell speed = 0.1

So 24 Casts VS 25 WTF!!!!

[ViviAnimus]

Also take into account that the BLM's potentional is a lot higher wit Selene. Of course, it's not always a given, but Selene can increase a BLM's DPS by up to 40, maybe even 50. So, after all this, I still conclude that SMN should do more ST damage than a BLM raw. And at the moment, it doesn't.