I'm all for clever localization but please don't just leave out important story.

[Renik]

And that would be fine if an original text actually existed.

I said i would not reply to you again but i see so awfully mistaken that i just had to...

Kazutoyo Maehiro: main scenario writer, this person is in charge of creating the main scenario, or in more colloquial words, he is the writer who writes the script of the game. His text is the original one, and it's mostly directly placed in the videogame.

Oda, who is the lore head works with Koji (ferne), who is a member of the lore and EN localization teams, and other members of different localization teams, in some cases the lore team changes part of the script to make it match with the lore they are creating, in some the localization teams have one or two ideas of how to improve the original text, and it get changed in the Japanese script and then gets delivered with the modifications to the localization teams, this was explained by them, and even if it wasn't it's pretty obvious.

What you are trying to prove, is that most part of the story is an amalgam of ideas from different localization teams, when it's just the original script created by Maehiro, and slightly modified to match the lore created by Oda, the rest of the lore team and the localization teams.

Again, minor changes applied to an ORIGINAL script to match the lore, they are not writing the main scenario Maehiro is.

In any case, what is being discussed here, in case you haven't noticed, is how a single localization team is taking too much liberty to the point, they affect the characters' personalities and the information they give, as much as i admire Ferne for all the lore information he releases to the public, he and his team have crossed the line this time, and by this i mean since 2.4, where the changes started to be more noticeable and annoying.

[Illya]

To be fair, Midgardsormr is pretty much confirmed as the linchpin character of the entirety of the Heavensward expansion at this point. So while the other, more minor characters do not really have a grand influence on the overall tone of a story, this one will, and it will grade the nerves of many of us.

As it's too late at this point to expect any changes for Heavensward's localization (this late in the voice acting and writing period, what's done is done.) This is more, in my view, a feedback for future stories.

The good news is that if the EN script continues to deviate dramatically from the other 3 languages in Heavensward, Reddit will be there to give us more direct translations so people who care about the story and lore can at least get the whole thing there instead of perpetually living in darkness like in the days before the Internet existed and no one knew about differences in translation scripts.

My biggest problem with the Midgarsormr re-write is the matter of intent.

It is one thing to embellish text or localize cultural references or wordplay puns that don't properly translate to English, but I would appreciate if the intent of all original text is present. Without that, the translation feels less like a translation and more like Fernewhales' and the rest of the team's own imagination as to how they think the characters should act rather than how the text in the original game treats them.

That's not only disrespectful to the playerbase's sensibilities (to contend that what we're getting is the actual story,) but it's disrespectful to the authors of the original work. I don't care about S-E's testimonials of JP players who speak English think it's "better" or "more interesting", you can make the text better and more interesting while maintaining its original intent and character.

If you look at the Midgarsormr literal translation and English localization, there are many cases where the 'character' of the text could have been merged with the literal translation without removing the intent of what the original author expressed. There's definitely a lot of room for culling excess fluff text or re-re-re-iterated facts or just making the 'voice' of the character flow better but that's not what happened here.

Well said.

[Intaki]

In any case, what is being discussed here, in case you haven't noticed, is how a single localization team is taking too much liberty to the point, they affect the characters' personalities and the information they give, as much as i admire Ferne for all the lore information he releases to the public, he and his team have crossed the line this time

And the reigning authorities at SE disagree, as do many players.

You're welcome to have your opinion, but not all opinions are created equal.

[Hyrist]

I'm fine with the fact that you don't like the story.

Stopping you here.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I'm disapproving of a depiction of a character in reference to the world context, not the story itself. Indeed the story is yet to be told, we have but a small fragment of the story as a whole - yet, one localization has Midgarsomrs intent diluted in murky speech and outright differences in information told. And the other three are rather straightforward.



And I disagree with you referencing fairly tales as a reason to approve of writing discrepancies. This isn't the age of Grim's Fairy Tales, where a story gets retold over generations and gets provided a different viewpoint or even an entirely different plot over and over again. Nor does that sort of logic apply here, as that would imply that the story itself should change to appeal to each individual audience. That only works in individual depictions of a tale. Like how 'The journey to the west' is depicted in many games and litterateurs throughout Japan. or the Hero's Journey is often referenced in game materiel and folklore.

This is the information age, in which we need not be divided by tones of culture, our viewpoints appealed to as if we're too immature to handle that some things are different than what we initially understand. In which people are, at the same time, side by side, being told two different depictions of a story by the very same global storyteller. Sorry, but I don't agree with that vein of logic.

And MANY Square Enix fans felt to same way - to the point where there was fan-translations of classic Final Fantasy games on emulators to better depict the story told, and to the point where those same games got re-localized when they were re-released later on.

Or how North American audiences pushed hard to get a local version of the 'Ultimate Editions' of many Square Enix games, such as the like of FFX, FFX-2 and the Final Mix of Kingdom Hearts games.

I do hope you understand the intention in wanting a more universal depiction, as well as the appeal of it. I suppose its the difference of exclusive and inclusive desire, neither one is incorrect. But in a game, a seriese, that often attempts to bridge gaps and traditionally pushes for acceptance and unity, to keep pushing the depictions apart from each other strikes me as rather contrary to overall theme.


Also, Intaki, site your source on the matter of how FFXIV is an exception of localization. I do beleive you're misinterpreting your pet interview.

I believe you have it backwards. Though this matter could easily be resolved by a Community Rep clairfying the matter. However by my participation and research of the process:
The Localization teams do not participate fully in the writing process. Rather it is the writing team that partially participates in the Localization process. And only to a certain extent given all the difficulties an international company of a non-English speaking origin has.

This is easily evidenced in the fate of the use of the name "Acheron" and how the development and writing team did not keep the Localization team informed of future plans. (Localization team used Acheron to substitute for a different phonics of the name Translated as Titan in Japan.)

Regardless, in either of these cases, it's pretty boggling why there's such a difference in tone between the English and other language depictions if indeed your assertion is true. If that's the case, all depictions of Midgarsormor ideally should have been highly similar if not outright the same, yet, such as the case is, North America's is not, thus we are here debating the issue.

And the reigning authorities at SE disagree, as do many players.

You're welcome to have your opinion, but not all opinions are created equal.

And yet you seem to have none of your own at all.

Are you a pawn, or a master of your own fate?

What fate have you wrought with your own hands?

... you know what, I might not mind that particular translation after all.

[Intaki]

The good news is that if the EN script continues to deviate dramatically from the other 3 languages in Heavensward, Reddit will be there to give us more direct translations so people who care about the story and lore can at least get the whole thing there instead of perpetually living in darkness

If that darkness is more nuanced and interesting than its more luciferous counterparts while remaining fundamentally identical within the context of the overarching plot, sign me up for the dark side.

[Illya]

And MANY Square Enix fans felt to same way - to the point where there was fan-translations of classic Final Fantasy games on emulators to better depict the story told, and to the point where those same games got re-localized when they were re-released later on.

One of the most notable examples of this was Final Fantasy Tactics, a game which had a rushed English translation script that bordered on being hash at times. For the PSP re-release The War of the Lions, it received a complete re-translation which corrected many of the problems in the original game's script.

Unfortunately it also removed the legendary "Tough. Blame yourself or God." line. Sometimes bad translations become iconic.

[Intaki]

You're pulling out of thin air all your information, aren't you? i mean, what's wrong with you, how can you be so stubborn... "highest authorities" "reigning authorities", what are you talking about? i seriously think i'm talking to a 3yo kid, in your language so you can understand it: script god make words, goblin printers put dirt on words, words dirty, clean words please.

You really believe that the localization team can just write whatever they want without a shred of oversight, even when the exact opposite has been stated to be the truth, don't you?

And yet you seem to have none of your own at all.

My opinion is pretty simple: the writing is good, fantastic even when compared to foreign counterparts, and no critical information is left out (though much of it is more subtly delivered).

If you like having NPCs kowtow to your character and constantly remark in awe about how special she/he is, that's fine. I don't, and I'm more than happy to praise the writers for finally diverging from that sad habit while engaging those who prefer instead to insult the writers and in some cases even demand formal discipline for the EN dialogue.

[Kazumac]

Unfortunately it also removed the legendary "Tough. Blame yourself or God." line. Sometimes bad translations become iconic.

I'm glad I am not the only one with a soft spot for iconically bad translations ><

On topic though whether approved or not by some higher authority in FFXIV I don't like the idea of the deviations and tone and personality between language versions. I do think the deviations are well done and entertaining but I would like them to be consistent in tone and character as much as possible.

[Hyrist]

You really believe that the localization team can just write whatever they want without a shred of oversight, even when the exact opposite has been stated to be the truth, don't you?

Again, cite your source.


Closer to reality, is that each individual Localization team is given a bit of creative freedom when translating and localizing, and that, in this particular case, it got overlooked by QA from Oda as something that would be well received in NA. It's not as if Fernhawles premise is without merit - I just don't believe the execution of such should lead to an entirely different depiction of such a critical character. Therefore, I provide my feedback as such.

Furthermore, Intaki, for as much as you'd like to hide behind the ultimate authority of the game Developers, need I remind you that Hunts was a game function created in response to player feedback. When something happens that you are displeased of, you too will defend the fact that your words do/should have weight in spite of the ultimate decision resting in the hands of the Developers.

If you like having NPCs kowtow to your character and constantly remark in awe about how special she/he is, that's fine. I don't, and I'm more than happy to praise the writers for finally diverging from that sad habit while engaging those who prefer instead to insult the writers and in some cases even demand formal discipline for the EN dialogue.

Again, quit putting words into my mouth. You seem to assume the most extreme opinions of anyone opposed. As I said, I don't mind the story.

Rather, my interpretation of the other Lanage's dialogue with Midgardsomr is not that he's in awe of the player character, but rather he is shocked that the Mothercrystal chose one of 'enlightend' races as a champion. There is a severe difference in tone between skeptical and insulting, and Middy in the other 3 langues is the former. Subtly isn't in question here, and has already been debunked, line by line. I am beginning to believe you're not even reading your opposition at this point.

[Almalexia]

One expresses clear intent to kill after displaying the Echo (not the blessing). The other does not at all. ("You earn a reprieve." is never in the Japaneese text at all, let alone the statement that it's at an end.)

Both translations indicate that everybody's getting dragon'd, but Midgardsormr will expedite the process for you since you showed up at his doorstep. Then and only then does he discover you're exceptional. The EN translation makes his intentions explicit; JP makes a more general claim, but he would have no reason to zap you unless he meant to kill/enthrall you with his dragon laser pointer. Don't forget he was trying to murder you 10 minutes ago.

One states, clearly, that you are under trial, the other takes your power and implies that he did it to revive himself.

EN has Midgardsormr calling you a chump because he doubts Hydaelyn's discretion in choosing heroes. But he still upholds his end of a bargain he made with Hydaelyn. As outsiders, we can infer it's something to the tune of making Midgardsormr whole again in exchange for being the player's Jiminy Cricket. Both translations and the action onscreen indicate a deal was struck; EN just has more incisive word choice.

One makes heavy implication that the dragons are purely vengeance driven. The other states that they're going to war in earnest to prevent the same sin to be repeated.

Both translations do not suggest revenge as the prime motivator, rather a cycle of revenge. It's a blood feud. Someone was wronged a long time ago and they've been "getting even" ever since. Even still, both translations suggest Ishgard is in the wrong because... well, he's a freaking Dravainian, dude. Ishgard is his nemesis. You can figure that one out.

The JP translation reads like an instruction booklet. Nothing is hidden from the player in EN if you use what you learned from high school English.