[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Kurokikaze]

This:

http://i52.tinypic.com/vymlpe.jpg

is the same as this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...kaze01/wip.png

is the same as this:

http://www.ffnemesis.com/ff10/images/sphere_grid.jpg

is the same as this:

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...ense_Board.JPG

is the same as this:

http://www.theicecave.org/damage_con...Crystarium.jpg

is the same as this:

http://images.mmosite.com/feature/ne...wow/wow_02.jpg

Do you get the point? "It's in every MMO" is not a valid argument because its actually in almost every modern game with RPG elements - all that changed was the look.

[Loony_BoB]

What about this?

http://www.aiyon.com/keke/ffxivjobs.png

>_>;

[kisada]

I don't think you have a problem with the idea but more a problem with change and the fact that I called it talent trees. Maybe I should have called it a License Board or Sphere Grid to throw people off...

might wanna sneak the comparison into your "solution" section to help ease comprehension for those in need.

[Kurokikaze]

That is FFXI and FFT mixed together. No there doesn't seem to be any sort of talent tree there... but unfortunately I fail to see how that fixes any of the problems with our current classes and just adds a crap-ton more to the mix that will need to be rebalanced along with the ones we have. New rug on a dirty floor.

Maybe you can explain it for me?

Yeah Kisada, I think I will take that last post.

[Carpe]

You're saying that License Board, Sphere Grid, and WOW spec trees are the same, but they're actually not. These systems are only the same in the sense that they're all tools for customizing your characters. But aside from the fact that their all tools for customization they're actually very different. The difference is when and where the customization occurs and how much can be customized.

In the sphere grid your character starts off with a very specific role and only after developing your character and getting through the imposed barriers can you break off into other skill trees.

The license board gives you total freedom right away there aren't any constraints imposed like the barriers in the sphere grid and when your character is totally developed they can literally be any mix of skills and abilities without having any penalties. This destroys class uniqueness unless you want to self-impose constraints on your character to have them specialize in certain skills and create a "class" for them.

With WOW everyone starts off the same in a certain pre-defined classes and then specializes in certain skills provided by 3 different trees, you're encouraged to specialize because the deeper you go into the tree the more advanced abilities are available to you, you're limited by a total number of points that you can apply so that you can't be everything at once like you can in FFXII.

------

When I said that the spec tree is so similar to what other MMOs are doing I wasn't trying to make a valid argument just saying my personal taste and preference. A lot of what we are discussing is just about opinon and preference not some logical argument about what is intrinsically better than the other. There's nothing intrinsically wrong about WOW spec trees, I just want to see something new.

-----

The main difference about the title system I was talking about and the class specialization system you are talking about is that while in the end you get FF classes and specialization, we're doing it in different ways.

You're system says that a Gladiator becomes a Dark Knight or a Paladin. So in your system, a DRK and PLD is a class the way a GLA is class. So after a certain level of GLA you choose DRK or PLD, do a quest and get a DRK or PLD weapon and become a specialized Gladiator. Can I do both specialization quests? Can I switch between DRK and PLD? Does GLA stop leveling up?

You system limits your "Advanced Jobs" to using only certain weapons and only coming from certain classes. Basically you're saying a Dark Knight is an advanced sword expert. But the advanced jobs from FFXI and other FF games weren't really defined by the weapons they used. So I don't think this idea is really consistent with the armory theme and the old job theme. Just my opinon.

With the title system you have two tiers of "classes" instead of just everything being a class in the same way. A GLA, CON, THM, etc can be a Red Mage, it doesnt require you to pick only one of those trees to make a Red Mage. This makes more sense to me because we know that Red Mages don't only have to use a certain particular weapon. A Red Mage is more a collection of skills, traits, and abilities and play style that don't limit it to being just a rapier and sword user.

So with a title system you have a weapon class and a title. You can mix your title with different weapon classes. The title gives you access to title-only traits and skills and the weapon class you choose helps to determine what type of title you are playing, what type of red mage are you going to be? A sword-using redmage(GLA), or a mage-type(CON/THM), or even some new style like lancer redmage or hand-to-hand redmage.

Here's some "classic" possible combinations:
Ranger = Ranger + Archer(Bow Ranger) or Ranger + Musketeer(Gun Ranger)
Dragoon = Dragoon + Lancer (Lance Dragoon) or Dragoon + Gladiator (Sword Dragoon)
Pirate = Pirate + Marauder (Axe Pirate) or Pirate + Musketeer (Gun Pirate)
Black Mage = BLM + CON (Burst Magic BLM) or BLM + THM (DOT Magic BLM)

You aren't completely constrained by the weapon you use (you can mix in skills from other weapons) You are just making yourself more effecient in using a particular role/play style which leaves you with a lot of options but creates the specialization and role recognition that people are looking for. This is like a new twist on the old class/sub class system.
----

As far as unlocking FFT style. Title system doesn't have to work like that, you can have all titles unlocked through advance job style quests after a certain level. I think your system is actually more restrictive or grind inducing than an FFT style cause you are saying that if you want a DRK you are going to have to level up a Gladiator, but if you want a THF you are going to have to level up a pugilist separately.

-----

In the end SE will have their own ideas about how to implement new classes and probably won't "take" any of ideas other than maybe to get a sense of what kind of direction people want the game to go in. That's why I just wanted to throw some other ideas out there for people to see. These two threads are similar to what I would like to see implemented if you want to read more:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Class-Renaming
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...9889#post19889

[Allistar]

That would be more classes to be balanced in the end and extra work considering they are.

Also I'm going on this:



Neither of those choices leaves room for the current classes to be fully functioning classes along with the FF ones. So I made them transition into the advanced class (specializations).

I don't see the balancing as an issue, think about it, everytime any new content or items or mobs get introduced we have to worry about balancing issues...its continuous, because there will always be something that SE didn't see in their initial testing. In all honesty I see the kind of system that worked in XI work here in XIV, but maybe even better...multiple DD, multiple healers/nukers/support, multiple tanks, give us variety. XIV has a lot of potential to be a very good game, influences from outside are nice but they should not distract from what makes the FF series different from any other rpgs/mmo's out there.

[Shikyo]

guy u should be on the devo team, but its too but that with a idea like this the game would greatly improve yet for some reason i dont think SE is listening to the real players... i hope they read these post and take players like u seriously

[Anathiel]

I'm pretty much with Carpe on this one...I've been reading this post for quite some while and throwing in random comments, but he's voiced his opposition on this way better than I could ever have. Also Solracht's idea on combining the FF:T and WoW(sorry to word it like WoW, but we both know that's exactly what it is). I mean, I really like this idea, but it's WoW and they're trying really really hard not to be a WoW clone. If advanced jobs were introduced as specializations within current jobs, I don't think they would do it in a talent tree system. Knowing SE and how they did things in FF:XI and for that matter, any of their main stream titles, they don't copy other games that are popular at the time. They make their own mold and they go with it.
Specialization within a current job the way that the Yoshi-P words not just in his current interviews, but the interviews he's done since he's taken over "command" of the dev team...is really that of Final Fantasy Tactics venue. Not to mention the majority of the team that worked on FF:XI and is currently working on FF:XIV worked in Final Fantasy Tactics. Obviously they're going to have very strong influences from those games.
Now, don't get me wrong...in my mind, the only way to appease everyone is to make a FF:T-esque way of UNLOCKING advance jobs, once they are unlocked the way to level these jobs up is to use a talent tree system. Having a baseline of abilities for all jobs, and then having the advance jobs have the talent tree's. It makes the advance jobs more powerful than baseline jobs, which was the case in any final fantasy (sorry for all those gladiator, marauder lovers out there, just the way it's always been) and allows you to customize your advance job the way you want it to be.
For instance, I get gladiator to rank 10, marauder to rank 10, and thaumaturge to rank 10 (I apologize for spelling) and now I can unlock Dark Knight (my favored class)...now that I've unlocked Dark Knight, when I level it up I get "talent points" which can be put into any of the tree's which I consider. For this particular conversation we will say Dark Knight has 3 tree's: Enfeebling, Tanking, Damage Dealing. Remember this is just for example...I always thought DRK could've been a tank if played properly lol ^^; Now, I unlock dark knight, in order to prevent over powering the advance jobs it would have to start at a higher level as to prevent getting too many talent tree points...actually talent tree points could just start with a higher level. Let's say rank 20, I don't have a diagram of how the tree's would play out, I'm just asking you to pretend along with me. Now, I want to cross spec so I'm playing a final fantasy XI style dark knight, half enfeebling and half damage dealing...you see where I'm going now? I hope so. But look, I hate the cookie cutter of paladins have to be tanks, or gladiators...so now I can respec my talent tree points to be a tank/enfeebler, changing my play style but still giving the game that overall sense of diversity that everyone is craving right now.

Now that I'm thinking of it, it shouldn't be a problem that any job could get the talent points and be able to "spec" in any way of playing. Um...Gladiator could have a talent tree spec open up at rank 20, the three specs being Spike Damage (two handed swords), Tanking (Sword and Shield), or DPS (Sword and shield with offense passive/active abilities).
Now most of the base classes we have now would have to be nerfed, and the talent tree's would be able to buff them back up again but at the cost of "I have a gladiator that can use black magic, white magic, pugilist, and archer abilities" which in my opinion should go anyways. Of course I think that the armory system should be gotten rid of, I don't like, never really did. If it's too much to get rid of, that's fine...I'm sure they could think of something, it's not my job to and I'm going to trust them (the dev team) on that one.

If I happen to find a diagram, or illustration that could better make my opinion known, then I will paste it in a new reply. If I just edit my current post it'll be lost in 5 minutes ^^;;;

[Shazaam]

You're saying that License Board, Sphere Grid, and WOW spec trees are the same, but they're actually not. These systems are only the same in the sense that they're all tools for customizing your characters. But aside from the fact that their all tools for customization they're actually very different. The difference is when and where the customization occurs and how much can be customized.

So all the systems are exactly the same, with slight tweaks. It's a customization system, that promotes character advancement and growth... with a different font on each. Where the customization occurs and how much can be customized is up to the player in every single system.

They are all the same. Different graphics, different numbers, but inherently all the same.

You're system says that a Gladiator becomes a Dark Knight or a Paladin. So in your system, a DRK and PLD is a class the way a GLA is class. So after a certain level of GLA you choose DRK or PLD, do a quest and get a DRK or PLD weapon and become a specialized Gladiator. Can I do both specialization quests? Can I switch between DRK and PLD? Does GLA stop leveling up?

Yep, you still keep lvling GLD up while you are a PLD, but if you switch to DRK you have no DRK abilities aside from what you have leveled. The base class levels while the advanced class levels, but both advanced classes don't level at the same time. You take your PLD and GLD-base to 50 and want to swap? Then you have a DRK 1 and GLD 50 to use skills from and the stats earned on the base class.

You system limits your "Advanced Jobs" to using only certain weapons and only coming from certain classes. Basically you're saying a Dark Knight is an advanced sword expert. But the advanced jobs from FFXI and other FF games weren't really defined by the weapons they used. So I don't think this idea is really consistent with the armory theme and the old job theme. Just my opinon.

Advance jobs in most FF games really WERE defined by the weapons they used. FFXI was different in unlocking 'advance jobs' but they weren't really 'advance jobs', they were new jobs that just required you had a lvl 30. Making a Magus or a Warlock in FF1 (yes FF1... I went 'old school') was an 'advanced job' that was a skill tree that branched off your base class.


Everything in this theory recalls FF1. Advance class and 'skill trees' (or whatever you want to call them) originated in the first Final Fantasy. This system is just a copypasta of something that has worked for the last 20+ years.

And I approve.

[Punxsutawney]

Really well written, and you seemed to spend time thinking this through. I like alot of what you have written, as I too see a huge issue with letting every melee run around casting sacrifice and sacrifice II. Something has got to change, SE could get some great ideas from this post! I made post #150 depicting my ideas abouting fixing the armory system on the http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...es-quot/page15 discussion