[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Shazaam]

I mean, I really like this idea, but it's WoW and they're trying really really hard not to be a WoW clone. If advanced jobs were introduced as specializations within current jobs, I don't think they would do it in a talent tree system. Knowing SE and how they did things in FF:XI and for that matter, any of their main stream titles, they don't copy other games that are popular at the time. They make their own mold and they go with it.

If you knew SE, you would know that a direct progression from a base class to an advanced class was started in the first Final Fantasy. A black mage would become a Wizard. And thus have a different tree of talents(spells) to use.

Has WoW really become so large that people think that Final Fantasy is stealing from WoW and not vice-versa? Next thing you will be telling me that the new Zelda game stole it's main villain from an NPC in Oggrimar. or that Napoleon Dynamite was a total-ripoff of the Blood elves.... or that Lord of the Rings stole that wicked helm from the Lich King for Sauramon.

FFS, WoW steals EVERYTHING, and it made the game great. Let FF follow that path please.

[Kurokikaze]

Going to be browsing these boards a little less until the crisis in Japan comes to a conclusion. So if you don't see a reply from me don't worry I haven't given up on this idea and I'll be back to comment and reply to your posts. I just feel that discussions should be held until things are resolved.

On another note; I am very disgusted with the heartless people on the boards complaining about the servers being shutdown under these circumstances or using a crisis to further their own personal agenda. I mean really... just wow.

That is all. Please do not reply to this specific post and derail my thread.

[Zirael_Foxfire]

[dev1033] When I saw how Rift (one of new WoW clones) handled class system, I thought to myself 'damn, why FF14 wasn't made this way': a job/subjob/subsubjob based on skill trees (for reference, here's a skill tree builder from that on Allakhazam forums for how would my hypothetical Thief/DD/tank look like http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...cuoz0z.EVb00oR). I liked FF11's job/subjob system but I like to have a choice of what abilities to use (like in current FF14 and other MMORPG tree systems). Having an option to use abilities from all leveled classes is nice and great for freedom of your playstyle, but in the same time, you'd maybe have to have level jobs just to use a single skill from them, plus abilities would have to get all evened out and nerfed to keep game balance (like Punishing Barbs got nuked because they were too good and anyone could use them).
I know it might be too much to ask since it was already done in another game, but something like Rift's class system is what I'd like to see in FF14. advanced job/subjob with a merit point-like abilities you can choose from on few different tree tiers.
Advanced jobs idea looks to me like FF11's lv30 jobs approach a bit, but I wouldn't mind, since that worked reasonably well. But I'd still like to be able to choose what abilities from each job to buff up. Looking forward to the changes, whatever they will be like.

[Carpe]

@Shazaam

Spec tree, sphere grid, job ranks, license board... take your pick, it's all the same concept with a different GUI.

So all the systems are exactly the same, with slight tweaks. It's a customization system, that promotes character advancement and growth... with a different font on each. Where the customization occurs and how much can be customized is up to the player in every single system.

They are all the same. Different graphics, different numbers, but inherently all the same.

First, you're oversimplifying the differences between these systems by just throwing them all under a broad category of "customization system". These systems are actually quite different and the differences matter: they affect how you are able to develop and customize your character and your game experience.

Second, I don't get the point you're trying to get across by even implying that their just the same thing. Why would you even be arguing that the OP's system is better than the current system in FFXIV if they are all "exactly" the same thing?

This isn't just a difference of "GUI", "graphics", and "font". These systems have different RULES, these rules determine where your character is going to start off, how and at what pace your character will be able to develop, how your characters abilities and skills will interact, what limits will you have on character development and customization.

Think again about each of these systems:spec tree, sphere grid, license board. They do things differently.

A sphere grid starts you off in a particular class role, you have to get through barriers to gain abilities from other classes. The system encourages you to follow one path by making it easier for you, but doesn't prevent you from going in another direction if you really want to, you'll just have to pass those imposed barriers to get there. In the endgame you can have your characters start to all resemble one another and lose class uniqueness. One character that's fully developed on the sphere grid is essentially the same as another that is fully developed.

The license board has a similar endgame: one character that has all the licenses is essentially the same as another character that has all the licenses. The only difference is they summon different espers and use different quickenings. The difference here is you all start in the middle and start to move outwards. There aren't any barriers here; your characters start off undefined and you can choose right away what you want to do with them.

In a spec tree everyone in a particular class starts off the same way. You may develop the same way for a while, but after a while you branch off into specializations. However your end game is limited in two ways: your class never blends into or borrow from other classes and you can't be "everything at once", you can't be equally effective as a tank/healer/dps because you only have a limited amount of points to apply.

Do you really think WOW would play the same if it had a license board rather than a spec tree?

Saying that these systems are the same is an insult to the developers that created these systems to try and bring you a unique game experience.

What you're saying is like saying that all thrillers are exactly the same thing because they are fall into the same genre. Sure, thrillers share some broad themes that make up their genre. Sure, some great writer can write a great thriller and everyone come along and start copying him so that the genre starts to feel "formulaic" and people think that that particular style=thriller. But another writer can always come along and break the mold and write a thriller but do it differently and get rid of that idea that a particular formula=genre. That doesn't mean that the original formula was bad or shouldn't be used again, it's just sometimes refreshing to see people go about things in a different way.

[Lamhirh]

Personaly i would hate changes to current suystem. I love it. I generally love sandbox system without ANY classes. Give me just skill and points to use them somehow and thats what i prefere. Current system is nice tho. In my opinion, its not class that should specialise , but a player. I would love to see current system expanded ( 1 handed axes for marudre so you can use shield too, for example) more classes and so on, but i hate predefined narrow, hyperspecialised classes. For my MMO gaming history ( from about 2002) i spent most of my time making wacky build characters just to breeak from those. If you played Ragnark, than example of those are AGI battlepriest, AGI autoatack sage and so on. It might be my personality, but i hate to be forced to do something as everyone else.

[Riv]

You've got it all figured out

That's more than i can say for SE.

[Shikyo]

i love this plan and really hope the devo team of se takes this guys idea directly to heart it sounds as close to perfect as u can get if they take this and use it as a blue print all the bs player poll crap wouldnt be needed again seriously do this then oyu can charge for playing and put out a ps3 version w/o a worry or dought in the world that u can make this game rebound for you financially and reputation wise

[Laughlyn]

My 2gil....

I kinda liked the WoW talent / specialization tree idea.

However i certainly dont want SE to just rip that off.
Some kind of simmilarties would be cool.

Atleast the option to specialize each class from various option. (even if its point based)
The current system is well ok until you decide to level another class & you have
to wait for the cooldown on the points distribution before getting the
full potential use of the other class.

So ya im game for a variation of a Talent / Specialization tree.

Kinda like... CNJ gets to choose if he/she wants to specialize in using
Wands over Staffs, Debuffs over Nukes etc.

(now im using CNJ as refrence as BLM becasue of the possible future changes ofc.)
Not saying CNJ fits better as BLM than THM, but im as clueless as everyone else.

Suggestion: (just an example) Prolly been discussed/mentioned before.

Conjurer
''▼'''''''''''''''''''▼''
BLM ___ WHM

Thaumaturge
''▼'''''''''''''''''''''▼''
WHM ___ RDM

This way i wouldnt mind spending points on unlocking spells for my progression choice.
If you pick BLM patch, you have more Nuke & dot spells to choose from.

And Whm, obviously healing & Protection.
(But with a points system in place you could get some sub-spells for your BLM aswell from the whm Talent ree.)
The possibilty of spending points on other class talent trees could also be useful.
All you have to do is level another class, spend some Subskill Points to unlock some abilities from other classes and have the option to equip use those on your mage.
(Sounds really confusing now that i read my own post, could mean re-vamp of things in the UI. -.-)

I'd replace the slot points cost with talent tree points.
That way your only limitation to how many spells you can equip is dependent on your current class (rank) level.

When reading this it sounds like a complete wow ripoff, but things can be unique even with simmilarities.

- Sorry for any missed typos.

[Judge_Xero]

Thanks Kurokikaze. I'm glad you took the time to group all the collective ideas about this system. The FFT system would be a great addition to class uniqueness as well as filling the role of a Final Fantasy Hero.

Strong Points

- Players can still use the Base Classes to maintain their versatility in Solo play. Or they can Specialize into their favorite type of warrior for Party play or Behest.
- Creates many options for class expansion - Tier 1 Advanced (Dragoon R40) - Tier 2 Advance(Holy Dragoon R60) - Tier 3(Spirit of Kain R80)

My Preference for this System
- I like the idea that Advance Classes could be a combination of the Base Classes (Just like FFT) and Require a Base Rank of those Classes to unlock them (Marauder R30 + Pugilist R28 unlocks Berserker (Dual Axe, Decrese on Defense to Increase Attack)
It wont tie in as well with the Skill Tree, but I feel that it would feel more rewarding to gain access to the Class that you are working towards. Also, Future Advanced Classes could be combined to create higher Tier Classes (Red Mage + Black Mage = 's Summoner)

Unlocking Advanced Classes below R30 even if it requires 2 classes @ that Rank is too low. Through personal gameplay I've reached R20 on a Single Class in about 6 hours and R30 in about 10. I'm pretty sure it can be done alot faster. This will not allow new players enough time to experience the game as a base class before advancing.
Advance Classes should start @ R1 and Certain Skills should be learned through quests that tell more story about Eorza, and about what's special about said Class. (The wow Factor of new players seeing a Red Mage at a R10 Camp would be great)

Advanced Crafting Classes (what about DoH/DoL!?!?!)
Depending on how the story goes Advanced Crafting Classes could have a catchy title. Blacksmith R25 + Armorer R30 ='s Machinist. (Builds complicated Bombs and tools for war) Botanist R40 ='s Chocobo Breeder. Fisher R40='s Chocobo Caregiver. Miner R40='s Miner R40

That's all I have for now. See yas in a week or so. Don't forget to Donate to Red Cross.

[Holyfye]

We might face an issue of weapons... as someone specializes from lets say Pugilist to Thief he will have to start using different weapon set and kinda start over with leveling the weapon and pretty much a total different way of playing. But still your suggestion is close to be a great solution. Because a mixed class like conjurer can have three talent trees of Black Mage, White Mage and Red mage? But then we have got to another issue that is when a new class gets in action like SMN and BLU, you cant fit it under any of the current classes ... and even if you made it alone yo uhave to also make 3 trees for it like the rest, and I cant see that working for a class like SMN