[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

[Onisake]

In the OP - Key words there. I'm just laying out a way that it can be done while trying to take into consideration balance. Balancing is probably something best left for them but its important enough that I feel it should be mentioned and we should discuss it.

And +1 to Demacia. I checked that for a reason as well.

it certainly can be done. it just doesn't make a lot of sense from a development standpoint. adding a new mechanic is complex and time consuming. it should be avoided whenever possible. That being said. we have a mechanic that can fill the same role. it fixes the current mechanic, and accomplishes in adding something new at the same time. this is a more ideal path forward.

also, because so much time and resources were put into the sytem already. the core will likely be the same. currently there isn't really a way to create specialization within the class without a complete overhaul of the system. in that case it's easier to start with a new project rather than fix a broken one. if you work for a company that builds refridgerators and you have a condensation pump that causes problems in production and fails too soon in the field; someone who knows nothing about manufacturing might say 'get a better pump to replace the bad one.' but it's not that simple. and often times you can't just replace the pump, because of logistics, proceedures, you have to re-train field operations, supply chain will also have issues cutting off one vendor and adding another. so 9/10 you're going to make a new product with the new pump and obsolete the old one and add a new tag to the product line. the same is true for software and games. it's already released. they can change a lot of things, but a complete overhaul is highly unlikely.

they will most likely use the existing system with some changes. it may feel very different from the UI, but the core basics will be the same. only time will tell.

specialization within a class should be done via guild marks IMO. not with a talent tree. you're creating a new system on top of a system that can acomplish the same thing. it doesn't do like you've invisioned, but this option is a bit problematic. mainly because specializatation within a class is a new class.

the current system of changing class (which isn't broken) is weapon=class. that basically means. if i equip a sword with dark-knight specialization. i'm a glad + more offensive abilities. which isn't really a new class. you're just calling it that. it'd be like concussive blow II. 'hey, i got a new attack.' except no, not really. it's just an upgrade of an attack you already had. there's no real uniqueness there.

INSTEAD: why don't we add a similar, but unique, set of specialization skills purchasable via guild marks for glad to make them 1) tank better or 2) deal damage better. or both at the same time, provided you have enough action points to put it on your bar and enough marks to buy both sets of abilities.

with this, you can then make pld an advanced class, unlockable, which can in turn have further specialization within itself. say phys tanking or magic tanking. it's less limiting with glad as a 'base' SAM could have guild mark specialization to focus on Bowmanship or Swordmanship. but still be different from dark knight or archer.

Rather than 'oh, paladin is an upgraded tank glad' or 'DRK is an upgraded damage glad.' it feels too gimicky to me. if you really want specialization AND class uniqueness, you can't mix them together.

[Kurokikaze]

Yes, they can do it with guild marks or the current action points menu and it'll be fundamentally the same just without a GUI. Either way works, I've said this before many times throughout this thread.

As for the rest of your post;

That all comes down to personal opinion. Whether you want;

1. Current classes to stick around and have new classes FF be introduced. <-- This doesn't fix any problems and just adds more classes that would require balancing.
2. Current classes to be replaced by new FF classes. Gladiator renamed to Paladin, etc.
3. Specializations for the current classes that lead into new FF classes. <-- This thread

Judging from your posts I'd say you're more in line with #1.

Whether or not a complete overhaul is feasible is not up to us to debate. Thats for SE to decide.

[Dyvid]

You know I was just wondering how does this effect DoL and DoH? We need consider all disciplines with these idea instead of just focusing on the fighters.

[Anathiel]

So...solracts idea of combining the three main ideas floating around...nobody feeling that anymore?

[Kurokikaze]

You know I was just wondering how does this effect DoL and DoH? We need consider all disciplines with these idea instead of just focusing on the fighters.

Meh I don't care enough to try to make a system that works with them. I'd like to keep battle classes and crafting classes separate. SE set pretty lofty goals when they set out to make crafting classes "full time classes"; they can fix that mess themselves.

[Rynricy]

Great suggestion

[Carpe]

That all comes down to personal opinion. Whether you want;

1. Current classes to stick around and have new classes FF be introduced. <-- This doesn't fix any problems and just adds more classes that would require balancing.
2. Current classes to be replaced by new FF classes. Gladiator renamed to Paladin, etc.
3. Specializations for the current classes that lead into new FF classes. <-- This thread

I think you're leaving out another option which is to add another system on top of the current armory which compliments it, creates class uniqueness, and retains a lot of customization options.

First let me just address the problems I have with 1-3.

1. Current classes to stick around and have new classes FF be introduced.

The problem I have with this is that it isn't really compatible with the current armory system because with the current system class=weapon. Original FF classes aren't necessarily defined by the weapon they use. A DRK should be able to use a sword, an axe, a scythe, etc. Keeping what we have now and adding old FF classes will also just create a lot of skill redundancy and have way too many skills being mixed and matched that we will still be left with the issue of class uniqueness and role identification not being properly cleared up.

2. Current classes to be replaced by new FF classes. Gladiator renamed to Paladin, etc.

I don't think we should rename any of the current classes because as they are now they are defined by their weapons. A Gladiator isn't a Paladin it's a sword expert. If we are going to bring back the classic FF classes as pure classes in a single system then we should just get rid of what we have right now and completely redesign them a la FFXI-2. This would be a massive overhaul of the game and I think if it came down to this the development team may not get a budget for it and FFXIV will be trashed by SE.

3. Specializations for the current classes that lead into new FF classes.

My first problem with this is just that it's used by every MMO out there. It's really boring and played out. This type of system more than any other would turn FFXI into a WOW clone which many of us don't want. Another problem is that again class=weapon, why would a Gladiator transform into a Dark Knight and only be able to use a scythe? Saying that GLA -> DRK puts a huge limit on customization, DRK should be able to come from GLA, MRD, or even THM. This is trying to force a skill tree/class transformation framework onto a system that was designed around customization and mixing skills and abilities from different disciplines for personalized character growth.

4. Compliment the existing armory with a new "Advanced Job" sytem that creates traditional FF classes.

So a fourth option would be to keep the current system class=weapon and augment that with a title system like was originally intended. A character earns a title like Dark Knight which allows them access to traits and abilities that can only be used while this title is active. They can combine their title with different weapon classes to customize their character and define their specializations. This creates a new kind of class/sub class system that is really unique in MMO games and follows themes already established in FFXI. A DRK/GLA is a dark knight that uses a sword so while they have certain DRK unique abilities, they would be specialized in sword class skills. A DRK/MRD is a dark knight that specialized in axe combat, etc.

Titles could possibly be unlocked FF Tactics style where certain ranks in certain weapons gave you access to titles or open up quests for titles, or it could be more FFXI style where you had access to all title quests after a certain level. Certain class abilites could favor certain titles so for instance Cure could favor WHM and PLD, but be less effective when used by a DRK. Also certain Title/Weapon combinations may not be allowed like you might not be able to combine DRK with archer. This system would bring back our old class favorites (Ranger -> Ranger + Archery or Ranger + Musketeer) but do it in a way that stays consistent with the FFXIV themes. I personally think this would be extremely fun system to play in.

[Carpe]

Another thing this could also work with DOH too you could get a title like Weapon Artisan or something that would give you some extra bonuses when forging weapons...just an idea.

[Frisque]

sorry I'm so late to the party, but wanted to say I read the whole post earlier today ( you know, when it was like 6 pages long?) and wanted to say that this proposal is brilliant, and I hope that SE is considering this idea

[Kurokikaze]

The problem that I have with FFT type unlocks is that it might be deemed as too grindy for casual players. Why should people have to level all these sub jobs before unlocking a class they actually want to play? Getting level 15-20 on multiple classes may not be that hard for people on the boards but for the people that they need to attract to keep this game alive in the future - it might be a bit much.

Also, please explain to me how #4 which you got out of that message isn't accomplished by this proposal?

CLOSING

SE will have successfully addressed these issues and many more that plague the Armory System by introducing this into the game. This is an extension of the Armory System, rebalancing of abilities, and a culmination of other fixes to Final Fantasy XIV under the guise of the Dev Issue 1033: Class Name Changes.

Is in my OP. What you stated is just an alternate method of implementation pretty much, which is fine, but you didn't say how this idea doesn't fall under #4.

4. Compliment the existing armory with a new "Advanced Job" sytem that creates traditional FF classes.

I really want to hear your thoughts. The fact that its used in other MMOs is not a valid argument. I called them "talent trees" because they are easily understandable to players that play MMOs. I'm really just referring to it as a concept which is something we have now with the Action Points Menu... only thing is that I'm adding more abilities, traits and a GUI to it.

I don't think you have a problem with the idea but more a problem with change and the fact that I called it talent trees. Maybe I should have called it a License Board or Sphere Grid to throw people off...