Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

[Butcherboy]

Ok so basically I need to meld gloves and boots got it. Yeah cause right now the only piece I have that's crafted is my head and gloves but no Materia

[HaelseMikiro]

If your skillspeed is below 390, rotate the use of Life Surge between Full Thrust and Chaos Thrust, as it's 50s Cooldown. If it's above this number, only use Life Surge on Full Thrust. Though, if you've had A LOT of practice, then you can use Life Surge with CT + FT at much higher SkillSpeed (I do it with 441 SS)

I did some math after reading this and was hoping someone could clear this up for me.
Life Surge has a 50 second cooldown so.....
CT = 250 potency (+125 for a LS Crit) => LS is worth 2.5 pps
FT = 360 potency (+180 for a LS Crit) => LS is worth 3.6 pps

So to be really worth using on CT, we'd have to be saving enough time to make LS worth more pps than using it on FT. Assuming a 2.5 GCD (as low as you could expect) and let's say you want to save LS for FT, but after using CT you need to refresh HT and Ph before starting your TTT (this situation would be most favorable to using LS on CT) so you'll be delaying LS by 5 GCD's (12.5s).
So that means Life Surge was used on a 62.5s cooldown and...
FT = 360 potency (+180 for a LS Crit) => LS is worth 2.88 pps.
You would need to sit on LS for >22 seconds to lower the pps to make it less useful of FT than CT.

Maybe I'm number-crunching something wrong, but it looks to me that saving LS for FT will always be worth it in anything resembling a normal rotation. I think alternating LS on Ct + FS might make the rotation feel more fluid, but it looks like a dps loss on paper.

Edit: Just to keep things easier to reference I went back 30 pages and pulled this up

125 + 180 = 305/2 = 152.5 /50s = 3.05PPS

I completely see where this math is coming from, and to put mine similarly I'd probably use
(180 + 180)/125s = 2.88PPS, and this is assuming best case scenario for Dervy's math and worst case for mine.
I'm going to set my GCD to 2.5 and run some tests, and also do some extended paper math to try to get some more realistic numbers

Edit#2: I see Dervy responded while I was typing out my first edit

[Dervy]

You're looking at it from a Skill vs Skill perspective, assuming LS falls on CT constantly every 50s. The falling of CT rotates between CT and FT, therefore you'd need to calculate the average PPS of both of the skills combined.

So really, 180/62.5 = 2.88

180 + 125 = 305/2 = 152.5 /50 = 3.05

You have to remember that the PPS for one of the Full Thrusts would be 180/50 = 3.6 when alternating betwen FT and CT.

[HaelseMikiro]

You're looking at it from a Skill vs Skill perspective, assuming LS falls on CT constantly every 50s. The falling of CT rotates between CT and FT, therefore you'd need to calculate the average PPS of both of the skills combined.

So really, 180/62.5 = 2.88

180 + 125 = 305/2 = 152.5 /50 = 3.05

You have to remember that the PPS for one of the Full Thrusts would be 180/50 = 3.6 when alternating betwen FT and CT.

Yeah, I've got all that just fine. But your 3.05 is on the assumptions that LS is always used immediately as it comes off cooldown, and that it always comes off cooldown immediately prior to CT or FT. This is likely not the reality for every skill speed value between 341 and 390, if any.

And my 2.88 assumes you will always wait 5 GCDs (with 341 SkS) after LS is off cooldown, before you use it for FT, also not always the case, and having any skill speed at all on your character will actually raise the pps >2.88. (Not a huge amount though, 2.46 GCD brings it to ~2.89, while waiting only 4 GCDs would make it 3.0)
The true numbers for both methods lie in between 2.88 and 3.05, and that's what I'm wanting to find. I'm planning on running some tests using both methods and just focusing on how many times LS is used, and how many GCDs I have to hold it for FT on average.

Edit: Not sure if it's good for the theory crafting or not, but I'm considering ignoring the first Life Surge use on each test, since a 50 second cooldown isn't required before using it. So tests where I alternate CT/FT I will still make sure to have an equal number of LS used for each

[Dervy]

Makes no difference in PPS if you count it from the first FT, or first CT, providing you're not using any other buffs excluding LS. PPS is an average anyway.

Here's my argument about the timings of LS and how it can be possible to fit in between every SS value up until we reach our breakpoint (which is theoretically higher than 390).

It's not even an assumption that we're able to use LS like how I've suggested it. There's room for it to be used all the way up until 404 Skillspeed with absolutely no latency and clipping issues and LS is used directly in between two skills.


Let's assume that this always won't be the case and there's a +- 0.05 variation on our timing of LS, that's still a maximum upper limit of 400 SS for the most extreme possibility. At 400 SS, we have a GDC of 2.444. The first LS is used in between VP and FT, which are 6 & 7 GDC's off from when we first start the rotation.

(6*2.444)+(7*2.444)/2 = 15.886 +- 0.05. That's our approximation of when we use Life Surge.

15.886+50 = 65.886s +- 0.05 is the total time of the rotation when LS will be next up.

CT is 27 GDCs into the rotation. 27*2.444 = 65.988 - 65.886 = 0.102 +- 0.05.

So even at 400 SS, taking into consideration there's no GDC clipping, LS will be up 0.102s +- 0.05s before our usage of CT. Of course, this is the most extreme case. Let's use the Non-Crafted BiS sets Skillspeed (410 det set), 378 SS.

378 ss = 2.465 GDCs.

(6*2.465)+(7*2.465)/2 =
14.791+17.255=16.023 +- 0.05 + 50 = 66.023
27*2.465 = 66.555 - 66.023 = 0.532 +- 0.05s before CT is up.

The timing is tight, but it works. Providing there's no clipping, latency issues or breaks in the rotation due to fight mechanics (Shiva EX is a perfect example where this rotation isn't as good), LS will be up prior to the usage of LS/CT, always, up until the break point.

[HaelseMikiro]

Alright, I looked at it some more and did some runs at 2.5 GCD, and read your exposé Dervy, and I'll agree. At 2.5 GCD, starting your LS before the first FT, it will be up every 20th GCD, (50 seconds/2.5 GCD) which will be immediately prior to a CT or FT everytime, up until the break point, which by your use of the term, I'm assuming just means "the skill speed value at which we fit 21 GCD skills in a 50 second window, thus throwing LS out of whack".

I haven't started my runs saving LS for FT yet, but something else did occur to me as food for thought. If the breaking point for Life Surge is 21 GCDs in 50 seconds (50 seconds/21 GCDs = 2.38095GCD) and the game will not display 2.38 seconds until you reach a value of exactly 460 skill speed, does that make all skill speed between 341 and 460 effectively weightless (in a dummy parse scenario), since you will always perform exactly 20 GCDs in any 50 second period of time?

Edit: Back after testing out holding onto Life Surge every time until FT. Conclusion from my dummy runs, for every skill speed value I did between 341 and 410, I had to wait exactly 4 GCDs after LS became available (which as expected, was immediately before CT every time). This puts LS at exactly one use for every normal DRG rotation of 24 GCDs.
So as a final tally, that puts alternating FT/CT at an average of 3.05 pps, and that puts saving for FT at 3.0 pps, with both at 341 SkS.
Differences being that saving for FT rises in PPS with more SkS, becoming more valuable at a GCD of 2.45, which starts somewhere in the 382-386 SkS range, I don't have the exact number. And alternating CT/FT will stay static at 3.05 until you hit that break point, at which point it will drop in value because you'll be forced to save it if it comes off of CD immediately after a CT/FT.
But factor in some latency and I'm guessing that's how you came up with your recommended value of 390 SkS, Dervy? I'm starting to feel like I'm just mirroring whatever testing and conclusions you came to 1 month ago, HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!!

I'd like other people to test and see what they think as well and if they do or don't notice any DPS increases.

[CesarLongsword]

Correct me if im wrong, but i believe you guys are neglecting to include HT and diss when trying to calculate PPS, my understanding is that crit adds 50% of the dmg after all of this is added up,
so FT should really be 360*1.15=414*1.1=455.4, so a crit would add 455.4/2=227.7
CT should really be 250*1.15=287.5*1.1=316.25, so a crit would add 316.25/2=158.125

ssooooo, going by the previous idea PPS should be...

FT only: 227.7/60=3.795 PPS
CT+FT: (227.7+158.125)/2/50=3.858 PPS

doesnt really change to much, but you do need to keep bonus's in mind

[SunnyHirose]

Well, since we're back on that topic, I felt compelled to do a quick and dirty model (with all the buffs and stuff) it to see how the periodicity affects the potential DPS gains/losses due to cutoff time.


(click to see chart)

In theory, using Life Surge every 50 seconds comes out ahead of using Life Surge every 60 seconds for 2-minute dummy parses, 3-minute dummy parses, 4-minute dummy parses, out-of-TP-at-the-low-skillspeed-it'd-take-to-do-this parses, and in the first five minutes is ahead/neutral 2/3 of the time.

Conclusion: It's probably better than the general case would have us believe. You do have to be perfect, though.

[rickyguo]

are we factoring the selene buff cause that's always going to be up in a raid encounter and the skillbuild buff could ruin the timings at certain skillspeeds

[Dervy]

But factor in some latency and I'm guessing that's how you came up with your recommended value of 390 SkS, Dervy?

Precisely. But if you lived in our Montreal data centers, you might be able to do this at 400ss . Most players average around 50-120ms (NA/EU) so it'll be around 390. I guess NA players might be able to do this at 395ss, but it'll be risky.

Correct me if im wrong, but i believe you guys are neglecting to include HT and diss when trying to calculate PPS, my understanding is that crit adds 50% of the dmg after all of this is added up,
so FT should really be 360*1.15=414*1.1=455.4, so a crit would add 455.4/2=227.7
CT should really be 250*1.15=287.5*1.1=316.25, so a crit would add 316.25/2=158.125

ssooooo, going by the previous idea PPS should be...

FT only: 227.7/60=3.795 PPS
CT+FT: (227.7+158.125)/2/50=3.858 PPS

doesnt really change to much, but you do need to keep bonus's in mind

The differences are much larger when you take into consideration HT + ID, plus I wanted to show it in the most basic environment... And it was like 5am my time :P

Well, since we're back on that topic, I felt compelled to do a quick and dirty model (with all the buffs and stuff) it to see how the periodicity affects the potential DPS gains/losses due to cutoff time.

I really like that graph.

are we factoring the selene buff cause that's always going to be up in a raid encounter and the skillbuild buff could ruin the timings at certain skillspeeds

Nope. But let's do the math now.

If your SCH uses Fey Glow right at the start of the encounter, that's 30s of x1.3 SS. The buff will last up until the second ID, 13 GDCs in. 14 GDCs later is when the CT will be up where we'll be using LS.

390*1.3 = 507 = 2.342
390 = 2.453

13 * 2.34 = 30.446/2 = 15.223 +50 = 65.223 +- 0.05.

13*2.342 = 30.446
14*2.453 = 34.342

= 64.788 - 65.223 = -0.435 = GDC clipping assuming Selene is used right at the start of the encounter.

______________________________________________________

If you're using Selene + Fey Glow, do not FT/CT rotate. The PPS increase of using Selene and holding LS is much higher than not using it. After a certain amount of time in the encounter, you may be able to do a CT/LS rotate, but I cannot be bothered to calculate it as it'll take forever to do so.