Idea against Undercutting at the Marketboard (The next.. )

[Zedd702]

Undercutting is fine if to drives prices toward equilibrium, but when people are undercutting by 1 gil it's doing this in the slowest most tedious way possible.

I do not have an issue with under-cutting at all.

As a seller: If I price Ehcatl Sealant at 240k and I feel its worth it's price or I am in no hurry to sell the item and want its full value, I leave it as is and wait. If someone prices thiers 1 gil less than mine, I couldn't care less. I will also offer competitive pricing when listing bulk items so if I sell 5 ehcatl sealants I will probably offer something like a 1-2k cut per sealant for a more tempting offer for the buyer.

Yesterday, and I don't understand what happened, but someone bought my sealant the moment I listed it. There were 6 others that were cheaper than mine, but the moment I listed it at 234k it sold before I could walk away from the MB. I checked really quick to see what was left and there were still 6 listings priced from 210-230k. I priced mine purposely waiting on the "quick seller" flood gates to close.

As a Buyer: If I see an item I need/want and the difference is one gil. I generally will buy the highest price one as a lesson to the under-cutter. Top listed items do not sell any faster than the rest when people take into consideration of quantity and price vs bulk price and discounts. And complaining about undercutting, regardless of how ridiculous as it maybe is comparable to McDonald's complaining that Burger King has 2 fish fillet sandwiches AND a small side of fries for $1 to their 2 fish fillet for $1...

[ChameleonMS]

Yesterday, and I don't understand what happened, but someone bought my sealant the moment I listed it. There were 6 others that were cheaper than mine, but the moment I listed it at 234k it sold before I could walk away from the MB. I checked really quick to see what was left and there were still 6 listings priced from 210-230k. I priced mine purposely waiting on the "quick seller" flood gates to close.

Three answers come to mind for this.

1. You were selling the exact right quantity that the buyer wanted.
2. The buyer was purchasing in the same city as your retainer, $234K has the same effective price as $220857 sold in a different city.
3. The buyer was purchasing in the same city with the intent of teleporting to the next city to purchase the others next. Your quick recheck did not allow the buyer enough time to make it to the next market board.

[Eye_Gore]

I generally will buy the highest price one as a lesson to the under-cutter.

I've seen people say this often, but does it really teach a lesson? For all you know as soon as you walked away from the MB, someone just bought that other one, and that undercut seller has no idea that you taught him lesson.

[Zedd702]

Three answers come to mind for this.

1. You were selling the exact right quantity that the buyer wanted.
2. The buyer was purchasing in the same city as your retainer, $234K has the same effective price as $220857 sold in a different city.
3. The buyer was purchasing in the same city with the intent of teleporting to the next city to purchase the others next. Your quick recheck did not allow the buyer enough time to make it to the next market board.

1. The rest were all 1 quantity as was mine.
2. Perhaps.
3. I highly doubt that.

I've seen people say this often, but does it really teach a lesson? For all you know as soon as you walked away from the MB, someone just bought that other one, and that undercut seller has no idea that you taught him lesson.

It does when it sits there and they see the other one was purchased and then it gets buried by the other submissions.

It's not a 100% punishment for that type of dickery as there is no competitive pricing in under-cutting by 1 gil, but it is a form of a kick in the balls if you will...

[Stihllodeing]

I've seen people say this often, but does it really teach a lesson?

No. I am on one of the least populated servers, I don't sell HQ* anything, and have made millions. I recently started undercutting by 25 gil increments in any effort to snare the con-undercutters, but have noticed no change in product movement.

There are four main points I would like to hit on. I believe my philosophies about these points have either directly or indirectly contributed to my success. I am not telling anyone how to sell so take it for what it's worth. As long as you're not violating the ToS for your gil, I don't really care how you earn it.

Board Camping

People who camp the market board should be rewarded.

People enjoy different aspects of this game, camping the board is one of mine. Some people enjoy fishing for the one that got away. I enjoy being diligent and proactive with my entrepreneurship so to speak.

Personal preference aside, it seems slightly absurd to me for someone to say, "campers are ruining the MB". Camping the board and appropriately undercutting puts you on top page, helps to lower the value of sought after items, and that's ALL it does. The economy in Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn does not have enough complexity, variables, or outside competition to be at risk for collapse. Certain products can tank but that does not give a clear indication the economy will tank. Not to mention how much buyers (and sellers) can benefit from a product losing value. If you don't buy and resell and even try to encourage your competition to devalue their inventory for your own financial gain you are not maximizing your potential to earn (doing it wrong).

Leveling your crafting class, and even your DoL, is very much tied to the market board. I know some people trying to burn through their allowances speed leveling a crafter have been very thankful for my retainers. Probably thanked me out loud in their living room.

Campers selling low-mid level items on the MB (ya know, the vast majority of the MB) are NOT the same as people camping the board selling a single 10 million gil item, but I see nothing wrong with them exercising their freedom the same way as I. Products losing value is almost always a win for buyers. I believe in the trickle up effect.

*However our strategy is not the same, our undercuts are generally much smaller, so people should quit confusing the two.

1 Gil Undercutting

I find it ironic for a community who is opposed to drastic product deflation to be so opposed to 1 gil undercutting. Community dictated price matching is only beneficial for RMTs when no in game mechanics govern it.

Outside of the forum, there are absolutely no tools in place to facilitate this practice in our economy. People who fear for a drastic decline in value for certain products should be advocating for this (1 gil undercutting).

The only people I don't buy from are people with retainer names like: stupidslutface and dghjusyndgtf.

Blind Markets

Blind markets thrive better in niche markets. That's just fact. There's few niche markets in our in game economy, and those markets don't differentiate themselves by much anyway. Again, the market FF has is very simplistic and has just began to branch away from being linear. Maybe in time certain products will perform better in a blind market.

As of now, I suppose there are a few items I would consider candidates for a blind market in Eorzea. However I would be completely opposed to a blind market only approach for FF ARR and would go as far as to say it would create chaos and upheaval, if at least temporarily.

Product Worth

This is really the nuts and bolts of the discussion right? Maintaining worth and integrity? Well I'm sorry to break it to some people, but the Eorzean Economy is about as watered down of a real life economy as you can get. When an economy is essentially comprised of the most basic fundamentals required for it to be an economy worth becomes and illusion.

Convenience is what drives our economy. Players are free to do as they will. At any point in time you can become whatever it is you want, and that is a beautiful thing. I've spent a lot of time leveling my crafters and gearing my wife's gatherers. I make money because I'm an informed Eorzean. I sell convenience.

......................

/slightly off topic

[Stihllodeing]

@Zedd702

Thank you for your honesty. I can respect that.

I'm also guilty of letting my emotions dictate my buying habits as well at times. I said this in a earlier post:

The only people I don't buy from are people with retainer names like: stupidslutface and dghjusyndgtf.

I know that's bad for business. And don't get me wrong, if one of those retainers were selling vanya silk or a blue bird for 500 gil I'd buy it in a heart beat. We all have our quirks I suppose.

I'm just trying to clear up the notion that "1 gil undercutting is always bad and there's never a reason to do it". I'll give a couple examples, and maybe this will give people a more clear picture of what happens on the MB from the perspective of a seller who doesn't specialize in anything other than quantity and low-mid tier distribution.

*Selling fleece. I keep HQ fleece for my own use, but put NQ on the MB more often than not.

Example 1:

500 - randomseller1
600 - randomseller2
600 - randomseller2
600 - randomseller2
950 - randomseller3
1200 - randomseller4
1250 - randomseller5

I this case I won't undercut. I'll list my fleece at 500 gil. Not because I'm trying to protect market integrity (fleece are not worth 500 a piece, imo) but because there is a low risk of me being bottom paged.

Example 2:

599 - randomseller1
599 - randomseller1
599 - randomseller1
600 - randomseller2
600 - randomseller3
600 - randomseller3
600 - randomseller3
1200 - randomseller4
1250 - randomseller5

In this case, my fleece are going up at 598. Not because I think I'm offering someone a "deal", but because I now have competition for top page.

Example 3:

600 - randomseller1
600 - randomseller1
600 - randomseller1
600 - randomseller2
600 - randomseller3
600 - randomseller3
600 - randomseller3
700 - randomseller4
700 - randomseller5

In this case, the undercutting has "technically" begun. And as I said, in all these cases the product I'm selling seems overvalued to begin with (which is the case for a majority of products available on the market board). I'll list my fleece at 575. I would prefer it to be listed at 599. A price of 599 would seem to protect whatever integrity the MB has, but I'm still experimenting with the "does undercutting by 25,50,75 gil snare the people who are so opposed to 1 gil undercutting?"

And for anyone who might ask, "If you think it's overvalued, why don't you list at what you think is appropriate?"

It's simple. Anyone can go get fleece, just about anyone anyway. It's almost impossible to determine the value of this product. The only reason you buy fleece from the MB is convenience....how do you price convenience? I might as well capitalize on the current value.

Anyway, unless something is so grossly overvalued my 5 year old could point it out, I'll never undercut by a large margin. So in comparison, my selling habits seem rather "stand upish".

[Zedd702]

@Zedd702

Thank you for your honesty. I can respect that.

And I see your PoV, but to be even more honest about the way "I" perceive the MB. I'm in no way caring about being the top listed item. I do my own research (looking at sell history, rarity and current listings of the item in question). I price my item competitively. If the item doesn't sell in a day or so I will revisit the pricing/supply/demand and adjust accordingly, until the item is gone or until I have a need for it or I may simply remove the item and wait til there's more demand for it. If I want to risk a loss in profit from what the static price of the item is going for, just to make that last bit of gil to get Artisan gear etc. Then I may make that executive decision to take a 500-1k cut in gil as that's a little more appealing than a 1 gil under-cut (which does not effect taxes in a way that would make me consider the item anyway).

[kiotsukete]

I generally will buy the highest price one as a lesson to the under-cutter.

I have had a few buyers do this to me, and I find it a very frustrating and ignorant thing to do. Because what the buyer doesn't know is that the seller they bought from, who I undercut by a few gil, has been undercutting me by a few gil for days. Unless you've been tracking the market closely over a period of time, you have no idea who is undercutting who and how badly. So your "lesson" is totally pointless.

[EricCartmenez]

<snip>If I see an item I need/want and the difference is one gil. I generally will buy the highest price one as a lesson to the under-cutter.<snip>

OK, so you're the guy who walked up to the board and bought a South Sea Talisman for 100 gil higher than mine? (I know, you're not on the same server, this happened.) So I put one on the board and I used the average of the last 6 that sold since there were no others on the board. I get undercut by 30k. I stand my ground until 3 more appear under that, so I go under the bottom price. This guys undercuts me by 5 gil. I change my price and go about my business and the guy undercuts me again. I change and it happens again. I go lower and someone buys the higher priced one. To teach me a lesson? I'm not the one who started nerf'ing the price, but someone with an attitude like that buys the one above me. There's no history of who cut who, so why do you think your message is going to work?

Your logic might work for Ehcatl Sealant, because that's an in demand product. Like coke, Potash, Arachne Web, etc, those things are often bought completely out on the market, so eventually, if your price isn't exponentially high, you will sell it. But there are those things that you won't sell if enough people post lower prices, so your 'hold out' method won't always work.

Fact is that there is nothing but supply and demand to control the market. You can't stop people with no sense from posting an item that has 3 million gil in materials or an extremely rare item for rock bottom prices and you can't convince someone with limited gil resources that yours is a 'better' product. Unlike in real life, there's really only two options for product quality - NQ and HQ. Yeah, you can dye or add materia, but for the most part, there's nothing separating your item from the next person's. Therefore, there's no logical reason for someone to buy a higher priced item. You buy the higher price and then someone walks up to a board and buys the cheaper on right behind you. No lesson learned at all.

[Zedd702]

I have had a few buyers do this to me, and I find it a very frustrating and ignorant thing to do. Because what the buyer doesn't know is that the seller they bought from, who I undercut by a few gil, has been undercutting me by a few gil for days. Unless you've been tracking the market closely over a period of time, you have no idea who is undercutting who and how badly. So your "lesson" is totally pointless.

OK, so you're the guy who walked up to the board and bought a South Sea Talisman for 100 gil higher than mine? (I know, you're not on the same server, this happened.) So I put one on the board and I used the average of the last 6 that sold since there were no others on the board. I get undercut by 30k. I stand my ground until 3 more appear under that, so I go under the bottom price. This guys undercuts me by 5 gil. I change my price and go about my business and the guy undercuts me again. I change and it happens again. I go lower and someone buys the higher priced one. To teach me a lesson? I'm not the one who started nerf'ing the price, but someone with an attitude like that buys the one above me. There's no history of who cut who, so why do you think your message is going to work?

I understand that reading comprehension is not a common skill set here on these forums, but I did not know that simple mathematics, ie 1 gil is the same as a few, 25 or even 100 gil... Furthermore, neither of you are on my server/world... So your posts are pretty moot... (and yes I saw you state that I am not on your world so it was a stab back at you)<<<< That was moreso at the second person.

@kiotsukete I do camp the marketboard and see the 1gil undercutting war in action alot....

Also my post/point was moreso at the 1 gil cutter. Further I've been undercut many times by 1 gil, but I will repost my item IF I think I have room to move on its actual value. If not, I will wait for my profit. It's an MMO the item will disappear if priced reasonable and if it is not an Emery posted for 99,999,999,999