Discuss: Are DPS meters bad for MMOs?

[Adormus]

OBJECTION! Assuming facts not in evidence.

No one, so far as I've read, is wanting anyone to be ineffective (whatever that's supposed to mean) nor has implied any such thing. For the most part, our objections to these types of parsers lie in their potential for abuse, period.

Well, that post was a reply to DSaint. Read his last post. He clearly wants everyone to be ineffective. Also the "possible abuse" argument is overused as hell.

People will get abused whether there are official parsers or not. People will be jerks over the most nonsensical crap. Running a parser does not magically convert you into a douche. Either you are one or not. This has _nothing_ to do with DPS meters. They will simply find other stuff to harass people with.

[Yamimarik]

Also the "possible abuse" argument is overused as hell.

People will get abused whether there are official parsers or not. People will be jerks over the most nonsensical crap. Running a parser does not magically convert you into a douche. Either you are one or not. This has _nothing_ to do with DPS meters. They will simply find other stuff to harass people with.

This^ right here. You will never and can never stop people from being mean or horrible to other people if that's how they want to be. People are people, they will always find ways to make people miserable if they can get the chance because that's what they love doing. Like I said in my earlier post, you will never know anything good, if all you worry about is the bad that could possibly come from it, and never give it a chance.

[Krr]

Instead of using hard numbers to improve our play let's use suppositions based off our own biases and unconfirmed guesswork. This is a reasonable way to expect humans to analyze data accurately and not what led us to absurd suppositions like "let's kill 30 goats every few months so Hades doesn't get mad at us."

It doesn't matter as long as you win eventually even if you don't understand how or why you took the steps to get there right?

[DSaint]

Well, that post was a reply to DSaint. Read his last post. He clearly wants everyone to be ineffective.

What...? You serious?
Luckily my post is still there for anyone to read.

snip

Although I still do not agree with you, I can see your point here. Its a fair point of view.

[QiLymePye]

Well, that post was a reply to DSaint. Read his last post. He clearly wants everyone to be ineffective. Also the "possible abuse" argument is overused as hell.

People will get abused whether there are official parsers or not. People will be jerks over the most nonsensical crap. Running a parser does not magically convert you into a douche. Either you are one or not. This has _nothing_ to do with DPS meters. They will simply find other stuff to harass people with.

But this is not what Hayward is saying. Yes , people are going to be assholes. What he is saying is why give them another tool to harass with? Thats like saying thieves are always going to be thieves, but lets give them full access to bank info, vault codes, account info, etc. Yes they are gonna steal regardless, but you wouldn't want it to be ok for a thief to have your personal information. I understand why people are worried.

[Ryel]

But this is not what Hayward is saying. Yes , people are going to be assholes. What he is saying is why give them another tool to harass with? Thats like saying thieves are always going to be thieves, but lets give them full access to bank info, vault codes, account info, etc. Yes they are gonna steal regardless, but you wouldn't want it to be ok for a thief to have your personal information. I understand why people are worried.

I don't mean to offend you, but nothing you used as an example is even remotely comparable, you're basically assuming every single person who plays this game (yourself included) is already the type of player who actively harasses others, and would mean they were already doing so with or without the use of a parser.

Objectively speaking a parser is closer in function to a stopwatch or a calculator at the most, the worst possible thing it could do you is show you numbers that are already there. It doesn't suddenly encourage poor behavior or bad attitudes towards other players.

If the issue is solely the use and existence of 3rd party programs being against the ToS (which i agree with) or that they are an advantage over Ps3/4 players, then like many have said already there should be in an IN-GAME way of viewing this data whether it be a SE released addon, game scorecard, or other UI based function. Let the GM's sort out the harassment complaints like they usually do and allow players to make use of the blacklist/vote dismiss features if need be while things get sorted.

The easiest way to avoid harassment is to avoid the players harassing you. Report them, blacklist them, and then vote dismiss them or leave the party. If it turns out the other way and you're constantly being told you're under-performing in content then perhaps that should be a clue to re evaluate your gear / rotation / whatever, also make sure that when joining a party for content (Party Finder) that you actually meet the requirements the leader has set (ilvl, specific phases, clear vs farm vs learning) and you're likely to not run into players who will get frustrated, Right now however as far as damage and performance goes you have no real means of evaluating that information through the game itself.

Someone who just reads the forums or watches videos is still adjusting their play / gear/ rotation based on information obtained through viewing performance numbers, the DPS and Tank Forums are full of info and test results from sources that couldn't possibly have been obtained through the in-game UI. Any of the "common" strategies for content you see in the Party Finder and eventually the Duty Finder are trickle down strats that have been number tested through trial and error by groups who most likely used a means to measure the most efficient way of completing the encounter, and as said before this is more apparent in ANY encounter that uses DPS checks in any form as a difficulty balance.

I don't think anyone in this thread is condoning the use of a parser as a 3rd party program, or as a tool to use to harass other players, what many players do what however is a way to be able to measure the performance of themselves and their party members to be able to improve / make adjustments where need be.

[Adormus]

But this is not what Hayward is saying. Yes , people are going to be assholes. What he is saying is why give them another tool to harass with? Thats like saying thieves are always going to be thieves, but lets give them full access to bank info, vault codes, account info, etc. Yes they are gonna steal regardless, but you wouldn't want it to be ok for a thief to have your personal information. I understand why people are worried.

Parsers are not "tools to harass people with". They are measurement tools and nothing else. Your analogy is quite poor. How about an analogy of a guy in the sauna with a ruler. You know...measuring things and harassing people over it. He'd be imprisoned within a few moments. Just like it would be in this game. Actually I feel like a genius for this comparison. That's totally it!

[QiLymePye]

Parsers are not "tools to harass people with". They are measurement tools and nothing else. Your analogy is quite poor. How about an analogy of a guy in the sauna with a ruler. You know...measuring things and harassing people over it. He'd be imprisoned within a few moments. Just like it would be in this game. Actually I feel like a genius for this comparison. That's totally it!

Lol. Thx because you have hit the nail on the head. Guy in sauna with ruler(tool used for measuring) harasses people using said ruler(maybe hitting people or walking up to them trying to measure their junk). Now, guy would be arrested. He harassed people. But guess what? If he used said ruler in the incident as a means of harassing the people, guess what? In this case Parser:Harasser :: Ruler:This sauna guy. ...........my head hurts. lol