Discuss: Are DPS meters bad for MMOs?

[Gardes]

Stop there! Exactly! Thiiiis is my point, my dear friend.
They need to practice. They don't need to read numbers with that Sauron program.
They-just-need-practice.

Lets warp for a different universe...
In this universe, Sauron never did a program to read dps pr healing potency. So, what is going to happen into ffxiv? Bahamut will swallow us all, because no one will be good enough?

Of course not!! Players will just practice with ingame features to improve urself and beat that dread dragon!

Yes, exactly! A tank who keeps failing at picking up adds and getting the healers killed because he doesn't have enough accuracy to hit the adds regularly will just need to practice! Never mind that nobody, even the tank himself knew that he is below the required accuracy or that he was even missing his hits in the fight because they got their own stuff to take care off! They'll just keep attempting the fight over and over! The tank's accuracy will surely improve as he practices his shield lobbing technique! Huzzah!

[QiLymePye]

Well, that post was a reply to DSaint. Read his last post. He clearly wants everyone to be ineffective. Also the "possible abuse" argument is overused as hell.

People will get abused whether there are official parsers or not. People will be jerks over the most nonsensical crap. Running a parser does not magically convert you into a douche. Either you are one or not. This has _nothing_ to do with DPS meters. They will simply find other stuff to harass people with.

But this is not what Hayward is saying. Yes , people are going to be assholes. What he is saying is why give them another tool to harass with? Thats like saying thieves are always going to be thieves, but lets give them full access to bank info, vault codes, account info, etc. Yes they are gonna steal regardless, but you wouldn't want it to be ok for a thief to have your personal information. I understand why people are worried.

[QiLymePye]

Better take out chat while we're at it, since people can say mean things on the internet to other people.

Once again, people making broad comparisons. No, its not like taking out chat. Lets use my thief ex. By your logic, "Oh no, we have thieves, lets take away banks, social security numbers, or better yet, money in general since people can steal." No. No ones talking about "taking" out anything, especially something that is needed for the "basic" function for enjoying the game. Now ive been playing this game for almost a year, Ive never used a parser, and i wouldnt mind if there was one available on PS4. But I also have seen people act crazy over a game that they believe they are losing because of someone elses mistakes. Instead of telling the people worried about it to get over it, how about the people that want to be perfectionist get over it and realize that the game wasnt just made for them.

[Ryel]

But this is not what Hayward is saying. Yes , people are going to be assholes. What he is saying is why give them another tool to harass with? Thats like saying thieves are always going to be thieves, but lets give them full access to bank info, vault codes, account info, etc. Yes they are gonna steal regardless, but you wouldn't want it to be ok for a thief to have your personal information. I understand why people are worried.

I don't mean to offend you, but nothing you used as an example is even remotely comparable, you're basically assuming every single person who plays this game (yourself included) is already the type of player who actively harasses others, and would mean they were already doing so with or without the use of a parser.

Objectively speaking a parser is closer in function to a stopwatch or a calculator at the most, the worst possible thing it could do you is show you numbers that are already there. It doesn't suddenly encourage poor behavior or bad attitudes towards other players.

If the issue is solely the use and existence of 3rd party programs being against the ToS (which i agree with) or that they are an advantage over Ps3/4 players, then like many have said already there should be in an IN-GAME way of viewing this data whether it be a SE released addon, game scorecard, or other UI based function. Let the GM's sort out the harassment complaints like they usually do and allow players to make use of the blacklist/vote dismiss features if need be while things get sorted.

The easiest way to avoid harassment is to avoid the players harassing you. Report them, blacklist them, and then vote dismiss them or leave the party. If it turns out the other way and you're constantly being told you're under-performing in content then perhaps that should be a clue to re evaluate your gear / rotation / whatever, also make sure that when joining a party for content (Party Finder) that you actually meet the requirements the leader has set (ilvl, specific phases, clear vs farm vs learning) and you're likely to not run into players who will get frustrated, Right now however as far as damage and performance goes you have no real means of evaluating that information through the game itself.

Someone who just reads the forums or watches videos is still adjusting their play / gear/ rotation based on information obtained through viewing performance numbers, the DPS and Tank Forums are full of info and test results from sources that couldn't possibly have been obtained through the in-game UI. Any of the "common" strategies for content you see in the Party Finder and eventually the Duty Finder are trickle down strats that have been number tested through trial and error by groups who most likely used a means to measure the most efficient way of completing the encounter, and as said before this is more apparent in ANY encounter that uses DPS checks in any form as a difficulty balance.

I don't think anyone in this thread is condoning the use of a parser as a 3rd party program, or as a tool to use to harass other players, what many players do what however is a way to be able to measure the performance of themselves and their party members to be able to improve / make adjustments where need be.

[Yamimarik]

/snip

I'm sorry, but no. You're example is a very poor example. What you're trying to imply is more like "Well, we might as well give people access to our accounts, characters, and to the servers data itself!" A parser is a tool, no more no less. Just like a writing pen. Someone could easily murder someone with that pen if they really wanted to, was it because the pen was right there taunting them to do it? No... it was because they wanted to hurt someone. So they used what ever tool was in front of them. The parser just allows you access to the information THAT is already there in a more simplified added up form so you do not have to do the math yourself. That's all it is, it breaks the information down for you more, which allows you to pin point more of your actions. (I really don't know too much more about it, as I'm a console player and don't have access to one personally, only what I've read/been told.)

And as a console player I'd love to FINALLY have access to my own parser so I can see my own numbers, so I can improve on my own time w/o the help of a PC player. Sure, I could do the math (but I'll admit I'm lazy) and also why should PC players only have access to this tool? Is that really fair at all? I think it's actually an unfair advantage, I'm not asking for a parser to see everyone's DPS, but I want a good enough one that does the same things as the PC parser, in game and for consoles for my eyes so I can see my own status.

/snip

So many valid points in this post.

[QiLymePye]

ummm, yes. all information is already there. its just who has level of access. Just like discrimination is present in the world based off of "information" that people have access to, so could people use the same "tool" you are describing to discriminate against people. What I'm saying is even thought the info is there, you don't have access to it with the access you are given by SE. Yes you could go and get a 3rd party program to look at said info, but at the end of the day, you are taking info that is not supposed to be known to you and using it to gain an edge ingame. And there will be others who use same info to discriminate and harass others. Its a fair argument. But here is my thinking on it, if SE thought it was important for us to have, we would have access to it, without resorting to tampering and installing "programs" to get said info. Point blank. If you people are so good at the game and want to push yourselves, show it by continuing without the aid of parsers.

[QiLymePye]

Oh and I wasnt' comparing giving parsers to giving people our accounts. Did you read my post. I didnt even say our player accounts or service data, etc. I was comparing giving Harassers tools to harass like giving thieves tools to steal. sometimes.....the reading comprehension...

[Yamimarik]

Oh and I wasnt' comparing giving parsers to giving people our accounts. Did you read my post. I didnt even say our player accounts or service data, etc. I was comparing giving Harassers tools to harass like giving thieves tools to steal. sometimes.....the reading comprehension...

I did indeed read it. You're example was implying what I said, not that you actually said. No need to personally attack me....

Also:

/snip

So much wrong information here. 1.)Yoshi-P does not advocate parsers on a professional level at this time. He once said they were looking into allowing, officially, add-ons to be useable for people, of course at the discretion that you use someone else program at you're own risk and SE wouldn't be liable for that. 2.)Obviously if he's looking to allow add-ons to be useable for one day, that means he advocates it on a personal level and probably just needs to get support for it before he tries to implement it. Also if he allows the "Don't ask Don't tell" means he doesn't care if people use it, so long as you don't talk about it.

Honestly so many people cry harassment specifically through parsers, but I've personally never been a victim of one in FFXIV:ARR, nor have I heard much of anyone really have an issue about this. Does it happen? Oh I'm sure it does, because there are mean people out there, but do you really think they're dumb enough to say "Hey! You're DPS is XXX and I know b/c I have a parser!" Or even just give the number? No, they'll just vote kick, or just kick the person/people(if it's a pre-made) and go about their business as usual. Again you will never get jerks to stop being jerks, no matter what you do. All you can do is give proper punishment where it belongs when an offense happens.

Also, if you go to the battle tab of your chat log, you can actually see your numbers of how much damage did what to an enemy or what damage was done to you, so the numbers are there for us to actually see, there isn't any "hidden" info. that the devs didn't want us to see, but who honesty wants to do the math? Obviously not PC players w/ parsers.

[Gilraen]

You don't need a parser to see the harassment it can provide, you just have to look at the harassment that we already have to know it will happen. People used to harass others for not having x amount of HP, the iL came and it became about not being at a certain iL for the content (seriously, people were wanting i90 for Wanderers and Amdapor for a while... I beat those in Company gear). It's pretty obvious that even more harassment will start if parsers that can read party DPS are added. Again, noone cares about personal parsers. It's the intrusive parsers we don't want.

[Ryel]

ummm, yes. all information is already there. its just who has level of access. Just like discrimination is present in the world based off of "information" that people have access to, so could people use the same "tool" you are describing to discriminate against people. What I'm saying is even thought the info is there, you don't have access to it with the access you are given by SE. Yes you could go and get a 3rd party program to look at said info, but at the end of the day, you are taking info that is not supposed to be known to you and using it to gain an edge ingame. And there will be others who use same info to discriminate and harass others. Its a fair argument. But here is my thinking on it, if SE thought it was important for us to have, we would have access to it, without resorting to tampering and installing "programs" to get said info. Point blank. If you people are so good at the game and want to push yourselves, show it by continuing without the aid of parsers.

The only thing calculators cause discrimination against in the world are people who can't do math, in which case.. you just hand them a calculator and the issue is solved.

SE already has the info available in frontlines shown so it's possible, as to everywhere else we've never really gotten a clear cut answer on that one. The upcoming API in development could very well lead to us getting something like this but atm we don't know, the responses Yoshida has given regarding parsing game data have been.. hazy at best, which is understandable given his and the companies position concerning this.

Keep in mind many MMO's on the market in competition with FFXIV either fully allow, integrate, or provide a means of this already it's not like this is some new and unheard of concept or feature, many players have or will eventually deal with this sort of thing.

And in regards to player skill, knowing the numbers only helps itemization, the content wall that is T5 for some people already proves that no amount of stats / overgearing is enough to cover if your party is getting divebombed into the walls or eating twisters for no reason.