RNG is Back with ZODIAC Relic

[Lemuria]

You're confusing long time grinding associating it with not being casual, because casuals are suposed to only play 1 hour a day? the rng is there intended to not let you get your weapons in 1 day, however people who really want their relics, invest more time in it, pushing it to the limits.

Being a casual player doesn't mean you want to keep playing yesterdays content. The problem this game has is that it's constantly gear-scaled. A new patch is released, a new bunch of dungeons come out and a whole new set of gear to grind up. Also, a whole new bunch of item levels required to take part.

You could 'casually' obtain Novus over the course of a year, but what would that achieve? You'd have a weapon which is not only unfinished, but completely antiquated even in its final form. Feel free to clean off the cobwebs, just don't expect it to be of much use for any of the 'current' content at that point. By which point you've already been able to obtain a nice level 110 or better weapon which does the job just fine. Ultimately you have to ask if it's worthwhile. I'd argue most would say no.

If they wanted relic to be casual friendly, they should have made the quests worth doing. People don't notice the grind when they're enjoying themselves, it's a fact. I didn't mind getting Zenith on every single class because it was varied and entertaining. I know that once I beat X mobs, kill a chimera, a hydra and three primals along with a few trades I get a shiny weapon. It has a fixed time frame I can work with, and a clear number of steps.

Moreover, each one of those steps is different and not repeated. Each boss fight has its own rules of engagement, and even a chance for loot to help your progress in future battles. It's like originality died after Zenith. It becomes a random grindfest. It's random whether you get your atma, it's random whether your Fate will spawn. It's random whether there's enough tanks and heals for your duty finder. It's random whether you can get that extra meld on your scroll. It's random if you get the item at the end of your dungeon.

...and for what? A weapon which offers NOTHING special. In fact, it's actually 5 levels LOWER than the current 'best' weapon in the game. So... why do we want this again?

[SantaClaw]

I wonder what's next. FATEs, dungeons, treasure map, primals all done.
Ha, I know, you need to do coils for your next relic quest! XD

This whole relic quest is nothing but a joke, waste of time. Don't be stupid, they simply create this nonsense to keep you busy, doesn't mean you have to do it...
I know rite. You're hoping that at the end of the day you got something to show off with all your "HARDWORK". But, I doubt.

Let's hope they won't screw up the relic, even they did, no one to blame but yourself.

Relic quest, casual? Are you high!?

[Kenji1134]

I think we may be in need of some player "re-definitions"...

In effect content appears in the following varieties:
Solo - Party - Alliance
Fixed Quest Objective (Brief) - Fixed Grinding (Long) - Time Gated (Often Long) - RNG (yeah, RNG)
Low Skill (Literally spam 1-2-3 easy) - Moderate Skill (Know how to properly play your class in a decent fight) - High Skill (Execute the mechanics flawlessly while playing your class to its potential)
Low Cost (Free Items, often Time Gated) - Moderate Cost (Not free, but not 100k+) - High Cost (HQ 3-4 star crafts, desynth items, and generic 100k+ requirements)

"Casuals" are people who tend to do Solo and maybe some Party content due to erratic play times. They prefer Fixed Quest Objectives, like kill this boss or clear this instance. Their content tends to be Low Skill or Moderate Skill, with the occasional High Skill check at the very end. And the quests are very often Low Cost, and usually minimally Time Gated.

"Hardcore Grinders" are people who tend to play in all 3 group sizes. They prefer Fixed Grinding, RNG, and occasionally Time Gated based progression as they have the ability to play and grind for hours on end. Their content often covers all skill ranges, with less personal emphasis on High Skill content due to burnout. And their quests can be of any cost, as they can simply grind up more money.

"Hardcore Players - emphasis on 'Play'" are people who tend to participate in mostly Party and Alliance content. They prefer Fixed Quest Objectives but requiring more skill and less grinding. Their content tends to be Moderate and often High Skill. Quests are preferably Low Cost Time Gated, within reason, or High Cost BUT SKILL BASED, such as knowing someone or being able to hammer out a 3-4 star HQ.

"Hardcore 'Casuals'" - Sounds odd right? These people enjoy challenging Solo and Party content, which is Objective Based, with minimal RNG, ideally no RNG. Quests should be at worth Time Gated, with items which are Free (but Time Gated) or obtained with Skill rather than coin.
^ This is the person who has under 100k gil, logs in to rampage through Coil, and occasionally pops on to do Dailies and gather/craft raid consumables. Honestly THIS is what most of the raiders in this game turn into once they clear the latest raid content.

So where am I going with this?
We have 4, really 3 groups that the vast majority of players fall into, and we understand that as a company, SE tries in some way to cater to each one.
The thing is, they kind of want opposing things.

The Hardcore Grinders will burn out if they need to farm a high end raid boss for hours and days on end. They prefer something easier which can be highly time or RNG gated, but mindlessly easy.

Hardcore Players like challenging fights, and a task-completion-reward based structure. Kill 10 of each of these 5 mobs. Now kill these 3 bosses. Now obtain 5 days worth of items from these dailies... Done. No real RNG to it, nor any point where the task was to grind out 2000 fates or 250 rounds of ST, or 500 generic dungeons... That is mind numbingly long!

Casuals are kind of like the Hardcore Players, but want a bit less of a challenge. At least something more forgiving. And no high end HQ crafting... Something from 2 tiers ago sure, but no bleeding edge crafting. Content should be objective based, with minimal RNG, and at most 4x as much time gating as for the Hardcore Players. So for instance a Hardcore Player could go some upgrade quest in 5 days, 1 3-star HQ, and 3 difficult bosses. While a Casual would get the same result in say 3 weeks, 10 single dungeon runs, 4 2-star HQ's, and 3-4 moderate bosses.

[Edeline]

Being a casual player doesn't mean you want to keep playing yesterdays content. The problem this game has is that it's constantly gear-scaled. A new patch is released, a new bunch of dungeons come out and a whole new set of gear to grind up. Also, a whole new bunch of item levels required to take part.

You could 'casually' obtain Novus over the course of a year, but what would that achieve? You'd have a weapon which is not only unfinished, but completely antiquated even in its final form.

That's the point. It's not about achievement, it's about having fun playing the game while doing it. Besides, it's an optional weapon outside raiding, and it's more than a decent weapon to clear every content, they're not gonna give it for nearly no effort. And that effort you have to put in it is in casual mode. I've made 1 Nexus and 2 extra Novus weapons. One of the Novus is nearly done, and the other one is half way, all this done with expert, trial roulettes and a random dungeon here and there. If that's not casual, you tell me what it is.

[NoahArks]

Not saying it's wrong of SE to do things like this, but they didn't think enough before doing it. I know a lot of people that quit the game or quit the whole relic weapon, just because of the amount of time you need to spend on it. As casuals (I'm one myself), they'd rather spend their few hours ingame doing something else than spend 2-3 hours on two dungeons or hours on fates WHILE also needing luck to get some progress.

Novus and Nexus were the most stupid additions, though. Novus is expensive as hell, and Nexus is done by spamming garu/shiva/ramuh HM's, cause you can finish them within two minutes with a party of full i110+.

Isn't the roulette pretty much good enough for throwing people back into old content? They should make it this way that you actually get one random dungeon, instead of currently where you would maybe get satasha 9 times and suddenly get a Sunken Temple of Qarn once.

[Alistaire]

Really? Because I remember practically 50+ posts and 1000+ comments of backlash lasting over a very long period of time (even beyond Atma's release) on NA Forums alone.

Even if that hadn't been a bunch of repeats by the same posters it's still a very small % of the player base. And those threads were just as filled with people disagreeing with the complaints. Whining doesn't make you right.

[QiLymePye]

I think the problem has more to do with how elite, hardcore players treat the casual players. Once again, not everyone has the same amount of time to invest as others in this game. But that shouldn't stop players from enjoying ALL of the content. I have had this game for over a year. I just finished my first ATMA upgrade about 2 months ago. I still haven't completed T-5. Why? its not because im lazy or because im incompetent, its because of the amount of time i have to put in the game. Also it sucks when you go into a fight/dungeon/instance and party wipes once and people quit. Most of the quitters...hardcore gamers who wanna rush, want people that randomly got together to be on their A game. Im sorry, i play this game for entertainment, fun, and some accomplishments. But I don't feel the need to have to go and spend time i don't have to go online, study film like im an athlete, just to play a game. That is what chases casuals away.

[Keisatsu]

That's the point. It's not about achievement, it's about having fun playing the game while doing it. Besides, it's an optional weapon outside raiding, and it's more than a decent weapon to clear every content, they're not gonna give it for nearly no effort. And that effort you have to put in it is in casual mode. I've made 1 Nexus and 2 extra Novus weapons. One of the Novus is nearly done, and the other one is half way, all this done with expert, trial roulettes and a random dungeon here and there. If that's not casual, you tell me what it is.

Oh somebody that actually understands what I'm going on about, you don't have to commit all the time in the world to these things, just do them along with your daily things, roulettes and what-not and you'll be done at a casual, easy pace.
Since when do casuals care about what it would achieve? I for one certainly don't and yet here I am close to Excalibur / Aegis shield without having done T9 :s (though some will get their giggles making fun of me for that, I hardly care)

[pRogz]

Stop complaining, once your finished, what do you do then? Its the last part of upgrading your weapon. It should be hard.

[silentwindfr]

let's cut the chase, you have casual weapon, Gerolt masterpiece are now the casual weapon, a casual in1-2 week can get the upgraded version of it at i110.

now let's see what you need to do for get the same weapon via the ..."casual" relic:
- the whole quest with the 5 boss and amdapor (relic - i80)
- the small grind for the oil (zenith - i90)
- the FATE grind for the atma (Atma - i100 without change of stats)
- the 4500 soldiery + the 9 book (3 dungeon, 3 fate, 3 levequest and 100 monster per book) (animus - i100)
- the 75 alexandrite + materia grade 1-2-3-4, if you are extremely lucky only 75 materia needed, if you are not.... well... sorry for you (novus - i110)

all of this for get a weapon i110 when... you can simply farm a bit ST and get a i110 weapon. indeed the relic can be custom and are not over, but after you have the nexus and the zodiac.

Relic weapon was a mess! at the start the two first step was easy, why that? for allows new player to catch veteran that had relic, a lot of legacy had relic weapon!
but after this...we did get seen come some huge timesink step and the trouble is now that you have a few step, instead to really ease up the previous one and allows people to try to catch back... we leave this insanely huge timesink like it is. because don't get me wrong indeed atma can be earn faster, but it's still RNG and well you know what it means. and animus part was long because of the FATE inside the book.

all that for said that this stuff is a mess! i hope they did learn them lesson for the futur. either they slow down the speed they had new tiers (vertical progression is not very good when you bring this much content every 3 month.) or they avoid to create a weapon for the hardcore gamer! make it easy to do is not casual...

ps: and for the god sake, ignore what do the hardcore gamer, you can't make content that will keep them occuped for age it's impossible, no one before you was able to do it and no one after you will be able to do it! aim for the midcore gamer....