Dragoon: top dps and easiest melee class by far ?

[Izsha]

numbers and stuff

I should have shown my work earlier and I apologize. Phone posting sucks for that. But I'm trying to follow your #s and a little confused.

Where is the 8552 pot coming from for your 60 sec rotation? Is that including AA and instants because it seems high. 60 sec rotation should be 4 ht, 2 ct combo, 4 phleb, and 3 thrust combos.

4 HT: 170*4=510 (400 if whiffed)
4 ph: 350*4=1050
3 TT: 710*3=2840
2 CT: 1000*2=2000 (1900 if whiffed)
24 gcds.
Total gvd pot from gcds landing positionals is 4600.
Total gcd pot from said positionals 210.
Total gcd pot whiffing all positionals 4390

4390/4600=95.43% (loss of 4.57%)

That is where my 4.57% gcd damage lost came from. Then you cut that but the % that gcd makes of your total damage (I ball parked 65%. I'm at work so can't check any 'abacus' splits and honestly don't have the time to math out instants and AA damage at this moment so feel free to use more accurate #s if you have them). But 4.57%*.65=2.92% net damage lost missing every positionals. Land half of them and it's 1.46%. Flank only 1.41%. Rear only 1.55% lost.

If you do 500 dps playing perfectly then positionals account for 14.93 dps. But no one misses ALL of them. So we are litterally talking about 7 dps under contention (from a 500 base). Still under 10 if your doing 600 dps.

Don't get me wrong dps is dps, but to claim that this tiny, tiny amount of dps is in any way comparable to the 25ish% that come from mnks positionals is just laughable. 25% compared to 2.97%? Mnk has nearly 10x the positional damage to maintain so no, I don't see drg as punishing by any st etch of the imagination. I'm not even talking about gl. Just wrote comparison of positional impact on gameplay. Drgs is inconsequential. To believe otherwise is to fail to believe in rudimentary math.

Tldr: drgs damage buff was warrented. Yay! But do not pretend your positionals have any significant punishment associated with them anymore because the mathematical fact is that it is nearly 10x less punishing than the EXACT same mechanic as mnk. (Nin under debate because people opinion of mudras is all over the place).

[Maero]

Dragoon definately needed a buff. But yes i agree with others, OP you have not truly played dragoon enough to warrant your complaints.
Level to 50 for a start and maybe do some Primals and coil, then come back....

[Hyrist]

Thank you for the work, Izsha.

We can see that positional are no longer a major skill-check for the class any further. Though, to be fair I thought that patently obvious when they removed the positional requirements on Heavy Thrust buff and CT combo. However, I found it redundant mechanic to force positional as a primary mechanic as that is very clearly the founding principle behind pugilist/monk.

If we want to seek out mechanics to add depth to Lancer/Dragoon, I'd really rather it be more unique to the class itself. There's very little synergy within its own kit, especially when moving from Class to Job. This may be intentional for the developers (It's not bad to have an entry level DPS.) but if not, I would like the development course to take on its own identity.

[siverstorm]

So after going back a couple of posts, why did this turn into a contest of who can play their class the worst.

Whatever happened to "don't be bad." The arguments in this thread have somehow become who can be the better baddie.

Some people are starting to sound like they go into raids thinking "how many mudras/positionals can I miss." It's almost like that other thread about nin tp usage "Well we have to spend more TP so screw Goading people."

For equivalent gear/skill, in a party composition everything is nicely balanced now. Perfect DRG rotation still falls short of perfect MNK rotation.

Though I guess I would rather see complaints like this about DRG being too good, unlike 2.0 where DRGs good or bad would get kicked out of pug groups for the sole reason that they were DRGs....

[Izsha]

good stuff

This is more or less my view on drg. I'm glad they are relevant again as a dps. I just feel they took away what little extra layer of gameplay they had and replaced it with nothing. All dps jobs of any type have the basic rotation/priority system. But they also have some additional layer. Ninjutsu, Wrath, stance dance mages, positionals, pet management, etc. That seems to be the general design philosophy and i like it. This just feels like a step backwards by effectively removing it.

That's my beef with this patch. Don't misconstrue my dislike of the patch as nin/mnk QQ. I like drg. I played drg for 9 years in xi, made a mythic and started this game as drg a year ago and recently swapped back to drg main after branching out to other jobs. I like the patch, I like the numbers. I don't like the DESIGN change stripping away without adding back. So when people say positionals are still a big part of the job, I strongly disagree (see math) because that last 1% of my damage can't be seen as a primary gameplay mechanic when it's that inconsequential.

[dday3six]

Dragoon is not hard to play, true. However it is hard to play to full potential. For example, I've seen several Dragoons took unecessary damage because of Jump mistimings.

It is a fair point, still unless it is getting them killed, which completely stops them from dealing damage. I don't compare taking more damage yourself to missing chances to deal damage.

[RakaMaimhov]

Sometimes I wonder why DRGs get such a bad wrap when I look at the DRG threads all I see is math. Then I remember bad DRGs don't read these threads.

[Zedd702]

Sometimes I wonder why DRGs get such a bad wrap when I look at the DRG threads all I see is math. Then I remember bad DRGs don't read these threads.

Oho.... I see wuh you did thar.... :3

[ChaozK]

4 HT: 170*4=510 (400 if whiffed)

170*4=680 though. Not that it changes much

[Hyrist]

<snip.>

The two conversational points I wanted to touch on the subject primarily is purpose for such a system and execution.


While I don't necessarily agree with the stance. Yoshida seems to take the idea that Dragoon should be something to the sort of a simple DPS job to grasp, something for those who don't want to get entangled with too many myrid mechanics. While this may end up hamstringing any calls and efforts for more class synergy and engagement, I would like to beleive there can be an easy-to-adapt system for Dragoons that can add to its functional depth.

The problem comes when taking that philosophy and adapting it into a system that works well in practicality. Put bluntly I'm trying to find a non-cliche, non overly complicated system that would accentuate dragoons and make jumps seem more than just tacked-on skills, and am running a tad dry on ideas that satisfy.

I'm trying to invoke history of previous FF Dragoons in my mind, referencing more single player than the MMO version for the sake of focusing on the Dragoon itself. The problem is, there's really not all that much depth when it comes to the class historically, not in combat functions. Most special aspects of the Dragoon were usually unique to the character using it, or held a specific function in a fight (jump on the wind demon).

Overall I'd like to see jumps do more, have some sort of additional effect that makes you think of them more than just an off GDC to spam (or not to for sake of stunning the mob.) Hopefully we'll see something of that sort in future skills or patches.