Isn`t just vanity. Is 2 diferent experiences and thats why is bad.

[LunaHoshino]

Are you saying DoH and DoL classes and players whose main focus is crafting and gathering can't ever win the game because they aren't fighting anything?

Why do you think you can't start the game as a DoH or a DoL class and must instead wait until you're level 10 in a DoW/DoM class to unlock DoH/DoL? If those were meant to be the main purpose of the game, you would be allowed to start as those classes right from character creation... but you can't. Not only that, but a large number of ingredients for crafting classes are enemy or dungeon drops.

It's hardly "my own personal definition" when the game itself forces you to engage in at least a minimal amount of combat even for those classes.

[Roris]

Why do you think you can't start the game as a DoH or a DoL class and must instead wait until you're level 10 in a DoW/DoM class to unlock DoH/DoL? If those were meant to be the main purpose of the game, you would be allowed to start as those classes right from character creation... but you can't. Not only that, but a large number of ingredients for crafting classes are enemy or dungeon drops.

It's hardly "my own personal definition" when the game itself forces you to engage in at least a minimal amount of combat even for those classes.

Legacy players didn't have to unlock them if they already had them leveled and 1.0 allowed you to start as them so there's that, but sure, new ARR players do have to unlock them like they have to do with every class by getting their starter class to 10 through quests and combat. However, once unlocked DoH/DoLs can technically progress without ever setting foot in battle as they can sustain themselves solely with the profits they make from both those disciplines combined, and then buy the mats they need with them. Sure the combat requirement might be minimal and is one of the many aspects towards progression in this game, yet it's also not the main condition to win the game as a whole as there are many win and lose conditions and objectives.

Going by the same logic, a PvE only oriented player can't also ever win the game because DoH and DoL's are full fledged classes with their own progression paths and an integral part of the game, as "optional" as you may or may not consider those classes. I guess people who don't level up all the classes be it through combat or other means can't also ever win because the game tracks your progress towards them.

Besides if the mount and minion collection aspect isn't important, then why were they featured for so long and so prominently in the very first page of a player's Lodestone profile? I don't think you could even hide those back then when you can certainly adjust the privacy settings on the other tabs like Achievements. Before tabs were implemented to tidy up those pages, I'm pretty sure mounts and minions were even displayed above a player's leveled classes, meaning they had a higher importance at least in page hierarchy. Even after the changes they are still listed under the main Character tab, meaning they are considered an important aspect of a character and a player, as important as their GC/FC, gear, stats and levels.

Edit: This includes DoL and DoH and fall into "pay to win" if you can buy something that benefit such classes, because they have a direct impact to the game.

Extra paid retainers allow players to gather more mats in ventures, not just quick ventures which are also an extra gamble chance on their own, to craft more items, and also give them up to 40 additional Marketboard slots to sell more of those items make even bigger profits. If that isn't borderline P2W, I really don't know anymore.

[Cyrus-Wallace]

Extra paid retainers allow players to gather more mats in ventures, not just quick ventures which are also an extra gamble chance on their own, to craft more items, and also give them up to 40 additional Marketboard slots to sell more of those items make even bigger profits. If that isn't borderline P2W, I really don't know anymore.

It's like I said, things that benefit DoL and DoH are pay to win, they have a direct impact to the game. There're several mats that drop from dungeons or have a very low rate. While you can send the all your retainers and get them for you instead. It kinda gives you an advantage over other players. Of course it's limited by ventures, but you can manage that pretty well. And I can say that because I personally bought an extra retainer since I was running out of space, then I realized the benefits of having 3 guys collecting mats for me while I do other content.

[Riepah]

Why do you think you can't start the game as a DoH or a DoL class and must instead wait until you're level 10 in a DoW/DoM class to unlock DoH/DoL? If those were meant to be the main purpose of the game, you would be allowed to start as those classes right from character creation... but you can't. Not only that, but a large number of ingredients for crafting classes are enemy or dungeon drops.

It's hardly "my own personal definition" when the game itself forces you to engage in at least a minimal amount of combat even for those classes.

I suppose combat is not the main part of the game then, because without crafters, you can't even get your oh-so-iconic relic weapon. And according to your definition, every combat class is a "main" thing in this game, but Rogue/Ninja isn't, because you can't pick it at level 1. Yes, it is your own personal definition, and your attempts to justify it are pretty poor.

[LunaHoshino]

I suppose combat is not the main part of the game then, because without crafters, you can't even get your oh-so-iconic relic weapon.

Relic weapons aren't a requirement. You could outfit yourself entirely with weapons from Coil/Primal drops if you want without ever touching a relic weapon. I know several people who have done just that.

And according to your definition, every combat class is a "main" thing in this game, but Rogue/Ninja isn't, because you can't pick it at level 1.

Which will almost certainly be changed in either an upcoming patch or Heavensward once they work out things like crossclass skills. Rogue/Ninja is the odd duck right now in numerous ways due to it being a brand new class, and I suspect there is a considerable amount of coding that will need to be modified in order to make it a starting class like the others.