Women and Armor!

[Riepah]

Because at this point, why bother. Amused refuses to acknowledge obvious sexism (if it doesn't bother you, if you don't care, that's one thing, but sticking your head in the sand and saying "lalala, nothing sexist about gear covering skin on guys and exposing skin on girls" is, frankly, ridiculous)

Yes, it's their "artistic vision". That doesn't mean it's immune to criticism or automatically makes it non-sexist.

I think with a female character called "Creamy Goodness" you're doing much more to objectify females than any skimpy armor could, anyway.

1. Objectification...is a VERB.

No. No, it is not. I stopped reading there.

[seida]

I think with a female character called "Creamy Goodness" you're doing much more to objectify females than any skimpy armor could, anyway.

Wow, stooped to personal attacks now?

1) I never mentioned objectifying women
2) you have no idea where my character name comes from or why I chose it (incidentally, it didn't come from a female character).

And why you think my name is remotely related to women says more about your own mind.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

Wow, stooped to personal attacks now?

1) I never mentioned objectifying women
2) you have no idea where my character name comes from or why I chose it (incidentally, it didn't come from a female character).

And why you think my name is remotely related to women says more about your own mind.

So wait, we've been called "sexist" since the start of the thread pretty much, and only NOW you start seeing "personal attacks"? Wow.

And btw, I assure you that MANY people will think interesting stuff when they notice your nickname. Not only Riepah :P

[Ophie-Mio]

That argument would work better if you truly needed BIS gear for a particular level to be able to level to 50 or run level appropriate dungeons. You don't.

Completely missing the point.

We don't feel insulted or "reduced" or threatened or whatever, and we don't insult, "reduce" or threaten female chars by stating we like their skimpy outfits.

Good for you. Too bad no one here but you is talking as if they are the general populace. Personally, I'm not saying that I feel "reduced", "insulted" or "threatened" by skimpy outfits. I just want a choice in the matter. My whm mini-skirt/underwear certainly didn't give me a choice of whether or not I wanted my ass to be hanging out. It just was out and I had to deal with it.
I got the acton to cover up my butt as soon as a friend mentioned that my ass cheeks were hanging out and I felt embarrassed.

And no, you personally may not be when stating that you like skimpy outfits but the entire game industry caters to the male population that wants women in revealing outfits for their pleasure. They don't actually care if women like to wear it or not.

Since you said that it's not a matter of the practicality, or that it's still tame, how is it objectifying?

I'm not going to address your first portion because like I said to Teryaani, it's not the point. The best stats are what I wanted, the revealing top not so much.
I actually found it hilarious how even when I was a male Miqote that the shawl was more covered up than the female one.

But the reason why it's objectifying is that the male one doesn't have the skin showing. Why not make the drg AF equal and have skin showing for both? If that was the case, it would lead to the only other argument which is that it's impractical.
Why does the female one need the skin window? It's objectifying because the female one IS the only one that does has the skin showing. Why? Because of the unsaid reasoning that in the mind of the developers they wanted skin to show on a female model. Why? Because it's sexy and they want a woman to have skin showing. They don't think it's sexy for men to have the belly window so they covered it up. It's a double standard.

Do you also (not just you, everyone on that side of the fence) consider nude classical art to be tasteless, sexist, or objectifying?

I honestly can't believe I'm answering this but if we're going by common classical examples, no, it isn't. Back then, the idea of nudity was to behold the human body in its glory. It's also why the original olympics were done in the nude. Celebration of man's natural form. However, that is not what FFXIV developers had in mind when they developed some of the outfits for female's in this game.
Fanservice, which is what they had in mind, is a harmless word until you understand its meaning. It's the idea that either gender is objectified for the other gender. It happens on both sides and both sides is sexist and highly against the actual core idea of feminism.

Because then it's a double standard.

It's not. The thread is about Women and Armor. If the men wanted to complain about their armor, they would do so in a Male and Armor thread. I'm saying that they aren't complaining here in this specific thread so therefore it had no place to be brought up here.

[Teryaani]

Wow, stooped to personal attacks now?

1) I never mentioned objectifying women
2) you have no idea where my character name comes from or why I chose it (incidentally, it didn't come from a female character).

And why you think my name is remotely related to women says more about your own mind.

No, you chose to name a pale skinned female Elezen "Creamy Goodness". There are few people who would see that name tied to that character and wouldn't at least question the reasons. You not realizing that has more to do with you than it does with the rest of us.

Completely missing the point.

Oh? What was your point with this?

That's not true. If you want the best stats available for the current level, you're gonna be forced into wearing certain pieces. In my earlier post, it's the coliseum shawl... People posted alternatives but that didn't actually make them better. The coliseum shawl is always gonna be better than the Harlequin acton. If I want the best stats, I'm forced into the shawl or I'm gimp.

"Stats matter and the gear that has the best stats looks risque" is what I read. I didn't misread that. Your "point" was that you were confined to a skimpy item because of the stats. I pointed out that you weren't. Showing you that your argument doesn't work isn't missing the point.

[Korilynn]

There was a time when there was no impractical gear in this game. They're moving away from that.

Just because other games set a low bar, doesn't mean that's the bar to judge against.

I laugh when I hear this. Impractical armor. Is it wise to go face to face in a cloth robe (that covers all your skin) when facing a sword wielder in armor? Where's the practicality in that? One swing and your bleeding!

[Xhominid]

Jesus Christ...the hell happened!?

People are talking about objectification, sexism and the kitchen sink without knowing the hell it means, cherrypicking Primals as sexism evidence(SERIOUSLY?! Freaking Primals!? If anything, in most myths and religions about the gods, the females AND males are usually NAKED, if not looking completely beyond our comprehension so if anything, Garuda and Shiva are more covered up than the naked Ifrit and Lioncloth only Titan...and why the hell am I even talking about this???) and stupid crap about how stats suddenly mean everything in a game where you can still be practical DPS with 15 gear in 30 instances...


Just this thread...so I'm gonna break this down...as best as I freaking can:

1. Objectification...is a VERB. It's not a noun, pronoun, adjective, homonym, whatever. IT IS A VERB MEANING TO MAKE SOMETHING INTO AN OBJECT! Sexual Objectification means to turn something sexual INTO AN OBJECT! Which means that you YOURSELF have to make it into an object. I don't objectify a single character, whether they be my own, NPC or even Primal but if you do and then suddenly scream sexism...you have a problem, not anyone else, just you.

2. Unless you are looking to simply mini-max, there's no point in whining about stats PERIOD. And even then, why not make High Quality Equipment? Why not level to 45 and ignore the Coliseum Equipment? This is literally the dumbest argument I heard and the sheer fact Ophie keeps bringing it up is just freaking PATHETIC. You have MULTITUDES of ways to get something else, hell, you can just glamour the damn thing away, I seriously doubt Glamour parts is hard to buy at all so the fact you can't even do that means you are just complaining to complain.

3. Primals don't even freaking OPERATE on the same plane of THOUGHT, you think they honestly give a DAMN about how they are dressed, let alone look? I seriously doubt Garuda, the most bloodthirsty of the 3 starter Primals, honestly flusters herself on how she looks...
And I highly doubt Minfillia is even a freaking fighter, so who gives a damn what she wears(which the only offense...is a damn tubetop)? Seriously, I've seen far more covered ladies than men in this game and people still whine about sexism?

4. For the last time...if you whining about practicality about the belly opening...yet not about the freaking spikes EVERYWHERE ELSE on the damn armor, then there is no reason to keep talking about how stupid the Female Dragoon AF is. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the damn thing on principle and it looks FINE. If this was the real world, it would be a practical nightmare...but guess what? It's a DAMN GAME! And besides, GLAMOUR IT OFF if you hate it that much.

God, these forums get more ridiculous by the damn day! It was from a funny joke to suddenly being stupid serious and not even being factual about it.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

Good for you. Too bad no one here but you is talking as if they are the general populace. Personally, I'm not saying that I feel "reduced", "insulted" or "threatened" by skimpy outfits. I just want a choice in the matter. My whm mini-skirt/underwear certainly didn't give me a choice of whether or not I wanted my ass to be hanging out. It just was out and I had to deal with it.
I got the acton to cover up my butt as soon as a friend mentioned that my ass cheeks were hanging out and I felt embarrassed.

And no, you personally may not be when stating that you like skimpy outfits but the entire game industry caters to the male population that wants women in revealing outfits for their pleasure. They don't actually care if women like to wear it or not.

"The entire game industry catering to the male population" might have been true in the past, but sure as hell things are changing - just look at the latest Dragon Age. But back on topic, you are accusing me of "talking as if I were the general populace", when in this thread there are people wishing developers would change armors FOR EVERYONE just because they do not approve them. Sure, some players support this request, as some other players are openly against it. We, discussing here, are only an irrelevant minority so if you accuse me of "speaking as if I am the general populace" the same could be said to you and other people supporting your view.

I can easily speak singular instead of plural, and it would not change anything.

As said, you HAVE choice. Most of the armors in this game are NOT revealing on females - some of them clearly are, yes, because the same design on males would be ridiculous and the developers wanted to give females some cute and sexy designs. . So what? Glamour them. You are talking as if FFXIV was Tera Online, come on.

Also..embarassed because your pixel avatar is showing a bit of ass? Are you serious?

That is you speaking as if you're the general populace. I'm not accusing. I'm pointing out a fact. The only thing that could be said of me is that I'm speaking of myself as in all my posts, I've said "Personally" and lots of "I, me's" and other such singular whatnot.

That was me stating the most likely reason "male players are not complaining about revealing male armors", cause there are plenty of scantily clad male characters and NPCs running around, for sure. And I still stand my ground, I really do believe that male players simply do not care about it / do not see it as "objectifying", and this is why they are not complaining. I hardly see threads about "OMG male armors are too revealing" on this forum. So yeah, I was speaking as the "general populace" in this specific context and I still believe I was right. Sue me.

And what others on this thread are saying is that it's ridiculous to them. Why are the males protected by the "ridiculous" clause but women aren't? There are people who find the DRG AF window ridiculous but it doesn't protect the female design of it.
Personally, I'd love to see the idea of what's cute and sexy from a woman's perspective vs. a male's but given that I have no idea how many women actually compromise the developing team...

Males are protected by the "ridiculous" clause because that's how it is. Ever noticed how many females wear the recently introduced male wedding gear, and manage to look cool in it? Ever seen a male char looking cool by dressing with the female dress?
Thought so.
As said, you can't put an absolute territory on a male Roegadyn and not find it ridiculous and grotesque. Female chars are usually blessed with the ability to be able to wear pretty much anything without looking like this:

If you don't understand that point of view, then that is purely you being unable to see the perspective of someone else.

[Ophie-Mio]

We, discussing here, are only an irrelevant minority so if you accuse me of "speaking as if I am the general populace" the same could be said to you and other people supporting your view.

We are not complaining about it because we believe it's an unreasonable complaint, for BOTH sexes. We don't feel insulted or "reduced" or threatened or whatever, and we don't insult, "reduce" or threaten female chars by stating we like their skimpy outfits.

That is you speaking as if you're the general populace. I'm not accusing. I'm pointing out a fact. The only thing that could be said of me is that I'm speaking of myself as in all my posts, I've said "Personally" and lots of "I, me's" and other such singular whatnot.

...some of them clearly are, yes, because the same design on males would be ridiculous and the developers wanted to give females some cute and sexy designs.

And what others on this thread are saying is that it's ridiculous to them. Why are the males protected by the "ridiculous" clause but women aren't? There are people who find the DRG AF window ridiculous but it doesn't protect the female design of it.
Personally, I'd love to see the idea of what's cute and sexy from a woman's perspective vs. a male's but given that I have no idea how many women actually compromise the developing team...

Also..embarassed because your pixel avatar is showing a bit of ass? Are you serious?

Yeah, though you clearly find it silly, me being embarrassed is as normal as you wanting to appear sexy or cute to yourself or to others in game. Your character is sometimes the only face that people will ever see of you. It's your image and should reflect what you want it to reflect. If you don't understand that point of view, then that is purely you being unable to see the perspective of someone else.

[CGMidlander]

And I highly doubt Minfillia is even a freaking fighter, so who gives a damn what she wears(which the only offense...is a damn tubetop)? Seriously, I've seen far more covered ladies than men in this game and people still whine about sexism?

Livia put it best