Is the Ninja nerf really needed?

[Fynlar]

So you're admitting that you don't know as much about MNK as you implied earlier then.

Nope. Don't go putting words in my mouth.

As far as GL, losing GL isn't as punishing as you would honestly think. It takes roughly 15-20 seconds (less if you have PB, but PB isn't always ideal just to get GL3 stacks) to build up stacks again once you lose it (Roughly the same CD as Ninjutsu)...

It actually really is. In a game like this where your damage is measured on a per-second basis, 15-20 seconds of being gimped is huge and it *will* add up.

While I am not one to say one job is "harder" than the other.. However to play a NIN well and use their utility in the right moment, takes more skill then spamming 2x sets of 6 skills on a MNK.

The mere facts that NIN doesn't have to bother with positionals or a crucial buff that requires near-constant enemy contact to maintain make it a far easier job to play. There is absolutely no contest there.

The only remotely complex thing is memorizing what mudras do what, and ultimately that's really not much different than memorizing any other DPS' rotations or when to use each weaponskill.

[Altena]

It actually really is. In a game like this where your damage is measured on a per-second basis, 15-20 seconds of being gimped is huge and it *will* add up.

15-20 seconds of losing GL once or twice in a fight only puts them at less then 3 skills behind in terms of GCD (excluding the damage buff that GL3 gives)... When MNK's damage is already far superior to any melee currently, the effect is pretty small - provided the MNK doesn't suck and lose GL constantly.
The one thing that encourages people to choose NIN currently is Goad, (and potentially TA) which is more due to the need for Paeon in most dummy fights. Currently in FCoB, and even SCoB, MNK is superior for all turns.

In addition to this - losing GL while PB is on cooldown is about as frequent to a NIN derping and stuffing up Huton - which is rarely (for a good MNK anyhow).

The mere facts that NIN doesn't have to bother with positionals or a crucial buff that requires near-constant enemy contact to maintain make it a far easier job to play. There is absolutely no contest there.

Are you kidding? MNK's need for positionals are definitely not as punishing as you make them out to be. In addition to this, there are very very few fights where this is a thing. The only one that comes to mind is T9 during the final phase - and that is purely due to a strategic choice. Even then, there are only certain times where the MNK does have to stack with the party during this phase (and that is Fire in, and potentially the Thunder that is paired with a Lunar). Every other time DPS can be wherever they want.

DRG's positionals are a lot more punishing in their current state - due to the fact that you won't get the buff from HT, and your combo won't trigger for Chaos - that is far more punishing then a potency decrease.

Positionals are NOT hard. If you can hit left/right on a keyboard or controller, you can play MNK.

The only remotely complex thing is memorizing what mudras do what, and ultimately that's really not much different than memorizing any other DPS' rotations or when to use each weaponskill.

No, the complex part of NIN is actually timing party utility. Giving Goad to the right job at the right time, landing Trick during bursty phases, and finally squeezing in as many Raitons as you can without losing Huton.

On top of this, MNK's "rotation" if you can call it that is braindead. It is literally 2x combos and a 2x DoT's (one of which is part of the 2 main combos)..
NIN technically has 3 combos with 2x DoT's (1 is combo'd), 3x main ninjutsu's, plus 2x off-GCD's that have to be utilized well to get the full benefit (Trick & Kassatsu). Finally, Goad has to be rotated to the correct jobs as mentioned.

Finally it is MUCH easier to miss-hit a mudra or skill, or stuff up in general on NIN then it is on MNK. It is also nearly as punishing (Missing Huton is just like letting GL drop minus the damage buff, missing TA positional is like missing a Heavy Thrust on DRG, or miss clicking in general and accidently wasting your Ninjutsu timer is a lot more common then derping on MNK). I can bet that even the best NINs out there occasionally mess up a mudra or 2.

I guess my point with this is that in order to truly utilize NIN's kit, you do have to somewhat choose when to time it correctly. MNK's utility just comes naturally (aside from Mantra which is arguably not needed in most cases as there is already so much overcure going around).

MNK to play "fairly well" is much much much more braindead and easy then NIN is. Although all of this is subjective, depending on whether you are a monkey or not. I have seen some awful MNKs, but I have definitely seen worse NINs.

[TheMax1087]

15-20 seconds of losing GL once or twice in a fight only puts them at less then 3 skills behind in terms of GCD (excluding the damage buff that GL3 gives)... When MNK's damage is already far superior to any melee currently, the effect is pretty small

I main monk and actually agree with you that it's easier to play than the other two melee(after your opener, ever gcd entails using one of three possible moves). But you are so far off the mark with your comments on greased lightning that it borders on absurd. Every endgame fight added since 2.2(with the exception of t6, shiva ex, and t8, I haven't tried t12 or 13) has at least one mechanic where a monk can be forced to lose their greased lightning stacks when perfect balance wouldn't be up, putting them 9 skills(I have no clue where you got 3 from) behind both other melee, as monks attacks have the lowest potency on their skills of the three, and greased lightning buffs both their damage and attack speed. The 27% damage and 15% attack speed is the sole reason their damage is higher, and as few as 3 losses of that will put them behind a ninja in damage.

[Altena]

snip

GCD gets reduced by roughly .5 seconds with GL - meaning if you didn't lose it, you would be roughly 3 skills better off. Takes 9 without PB to get 3 stacks - meaning an increased GCD of .5 seconds per skill = roughly 4.5 more seconds worth of GCD if you maintained it - meaning 2-3 skills. (This of course isn't taking into consideration the damage buff you also gain, nor does it take into consideration the reduced GCD during the 2nd & 3rd combo while building stacks, however I did state this and it's due to simplicity/my poor math skills).

You are not 9 skills worse off if you lose GL - as you are still hitting those 9 skills, just at a .5 second increased rate to 3 stacks of GL.

That is what I meant by my statement.

T10 doesn't force you off the mob unless you get charged - which isn't a forced mechanic that's "always on the MNK". It's purely RNG. You will lose about as much damage as any other melee would.
T11 is more or less a dummy fight for the most part.
T12 is a dummy fight with adds (provided you have a BRD that is handling a lot of the mechanics).
I haven't touched T13 though so I can't truthfully comment on that one - however considering world firsts (and many other groups) run MNK/MNK for it, I daresay there are reasons for that.

If you simply get unlucky and get "every single charge" in T10 - or at least a tonne of them, then sure it will hurt your damage, but this is the same for any DPS.
I won't deny that MNK does have its weakness in that regard - and that's in places where they consistently lose GL3. However if it only happens a few times in a 10 min fight, it is still pushing huge numbers generally.

[ShanaShirayuki]

Nope. Don't go putting words in my mouth.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...y-needed/page2