Is the Ninja nerf really needed?

[Altena]

Monk has a high skill ceiling? Are you people delusional? "Keeping up DoT's and buffs" is no harder then any other job - DK/Demolish/ToD/Twin ? That's pretty standard stuff.. All 3 melee DPS have to do this..

As far as GL, losing GL isn't as punishing as you would honestly think. It takes roughly 15-20 seconds (less if you have PB, but PB isn't always ideal just to get GL3 stacks) to build up stacks again once you lose it (Roughly the same CD as Ninjutsu)... And keeping GL in most fights is about as hard as executing a mudra (so not hard at all, and often easier as FCoB fights are practically dummies). Sure there is the oddball fight such as Levi Ex or Ifrit (old content) where you will lose it during jumps, but jobs such as BLM have a tonne more fights where they are punished due to high dodge mechanics.

Ninja isn't "easy" for a lot of people either. While they still have the standard buffs to take care of (a few DoT's, damage/speed buffs), they also have to pay attention to near perfect timings with things like utilizing TA during the party's bursty phases, timing ninjutsu to squeeze in an extra Raiton, and keeping Goad on CD to support the MNK/DRG/BRD/Tanks (which MNK do not need to worry about.. spam your 2x sets of 3 skills over and over).

In addition to ALL of this - MNK is still the superior single target DPS.

Also the arguments about "SE's battle testers having played NIN far longer then we have" is folly. In the translation itself, Yoshi basically said that players are better then their internal testers, and that the current rotation for NIN (which was pretty obvious to most people after playing it for a short while) was different to those of the tester's. So it just shows that SE's testers aren't really great players. This is pretty evident after seeing some of those hilariously awful videos of them trying to complete primal fights in the early days.

While I am not one to say one job is "harder" than the other.. However to play a NIN well and use their utility in the right moment, takes more skill then spamming 2x sets of 6 skills on a MNK.

Finally I have never been a fan of this argument that SE keeps making as to why "MNK is so stronk" and that is because it has a "high skill ceiling". If that is honestly the reason, then make DRG more challenging to play well, and buff it on par with MNK.

Being a "harder job to play" is an extremely stupid excuse for having unbalanced jobs.

[FireHero]

My issue why increase TP costs? Long fights are such a pain keep a usable amount of TP. Damage yes they are a bit op when having 2 ninja's can shave minutes of runs that could not be done before (as long as you kill the end boss before your TP runs out)

[Giantbane]

The dragoon changes won't likely earn them a final coil spot from someone who is recruiting unless you have someone who only plays drg and its their only job their groups will still use them. They are giving them survival with more mdef, and easing up on positionals so only damage is effected you still get the buffs and debuffs if you miss them. However now high skilled drgs don't miss positionals now what the buff does is helps out less skilled players close the gap between high skilled players so in the end high skilled players really just getting survivability increase so like they won't have to stack a bunch of vit melds for T13.

They're also talking about damage buffs via reduced cooldowns and/or increased dot potency. I wouldn't be surprised if bfb gets dropped down to 1min to match IR among other things.

[Altena]

They're also talking about damage buffs via reduced cooldowns and/or increased dot potency. I wouldn't be surprised if bfb gets dropped down to 1min to match IR among other things.

Would prefer something a bit more akin to 1.0's Power Surge such as a stacking buff that gives a damage buff every time you use a jump (Jump/Spine/Dragon/Elusive). Give them a mechanic. Currently they don't really have any.

However they won't redesign the class.

Lower B4B CD wouldn't be a buff to just DRG though - would also buff all classes that sub it (basically all physical dps). I expect something more like a lower Jump CD.

[ElHeggunte]

Lower B4B CD wouldn't be a buff to just DRG though - would also buff all classes that sub it (basically all physical dps).

Not necessarily. They could just as easily tie the reduced CD to the improved B4B trait. Unlikely to be sure, but it's one way to boost DRG performance without enhancing anyone else who can use it.

[Fynlar]

So you're admitting that you don't know as much about MNK as you implied earlier then.

Nope. Don't go putting words in my mouth.

As far as GL, losing GL isn't as punishing as you would honestly think. It takes roughly 15-20 seconds (less if you have PB, but PB isn't always ideal just to get GL3 stacks) to build up stacks again once you lose it (Roughly the same CD as Ninjutsu)...

It actually really is. In a game like this where your damage is measured on a per-second basis, 15-20 seconds of being gimped is huge and it *will* add up.

While I am not one to say one job is "harder" than the other.. However to play a NIN well and use their utility in the right moment, takes more skill then spamming 2x sets of 6 skills on a MNK.

The mere facts that NIN doesn't have to bother with positionals or a crucial buff that requires near-constant enemy contact to maintain make it a far easier job to play. There is absolutely no contest there.

The only remotely complex thing is memorizing what mudras do what, and ultimately that's really not much different than memorizing any other DPS' rotations or when to use each weaponskill.

[Altena]

It actually really is. In a game like this where your damage is measured on a per-second basis, 15-20 seconds of being gimped is huge and it *will* add up.

15-20 seconds of losing GL once or twice in a fight only puts them at less then 3 skills behind in terms of GCD (excluding the damage buff that GL3 gives)... When MNK's damage is already far superior to any melee currently, the effect is pretty small - provided the MNK doesn't suck and lose GL constantly.
The one thing that encourages people to choose NIN currently is Goad, (and potentially TA) which is more due to the need for Paeon in most dummy fights. Currently in FCoB, and even SCoB, MNK is superior for all turns.

In addition to this - losing GL while PB is on cooldown is about as frequent to a NIN derping and stuffing up Huton - which is rarely (for a good MNK anyhow).

The mere facts that NIN doesn't have to bother with positionals or a crucial buff that requires near-constant enemy contact to maintain make it a far easier job to play. There is absolutely no contest there.

Are you kidding? MNK's need for positionals are definitely not as punishing as you make them out to be. In addition to this, there are very very few fights where this is a thing. The only one that comes to mind is T9 during the final phase - and that is purely due to a strategic choice. Even then, there are only certain times where the MNK does have to stack with the party during this phase (and that is Fire in, and potentially the Thunder that is paired with a Lunar). Every other time DPS can be wherever they want.

DRG's positionals are a lot more punishing in their current state - due to the fact that you won't get the buff from HT, and your combo won't trigger for Chaos - that is far more punishing then a potency decrease.

Positionals are NOT hard. If you can hit left/right on a keyboard or controller, you can play MNK.

The only remotely complex thing is memorizing what mudras do what, and ultimately that's really not much different than memorizing any other DPS' rotations or when to use each weaponskill.

No, the complex part of NIN is actually timing party utility. Giving Goad to the right job at the right time, landing Trick during bursty phases, and finally squeezing in as many Raitons as you can without losing Huton.

On top of this, MNK's "rotation" if you can call it that is braindead. It is literally 2x combos and a 2x DoT's (one of which is part of the 2 main combos)..
NIN technically has 3 combos with 2x DoT's (1 is combo'd), 3x main ninjutsu's, plus 2x off-GCD's that have to be utilized well to get the full benefit (Trick & Kassatsu). Finally, Goad has to be rotated to the correct jobs as mentioned.

Finally it is MUCH easier to miss-hit a mudra or skill, or stuff up in general on NIN then it is on MNK. It is also nearly as punishing (Missing Huton is just like letting GL drop minus the damage buff, missing TA positional is like missing a Heavy Thrust on DRG, or miss clicking in general and accidently wasting your Ninjutsu timer is a lot more common then derping on MNK). I can bet that even the best NINs out there occasionally mess up a mudra or 2.

I guess my point with this is that in order to truly utilize NIN's kit, you do have to somewhat choose when to time it correctly. MNK's utility just comes naturally (aside from Mantra which is arguably not needed in most cases as there is already so much overcure going around).

MNK to play "fairly well" is much much much more braindead and easy then NIN is. Although all of this is subjective, depending on whether you are a monkey or not. I have seen some awful MNKs, but I have definitely seen worse NINs.

[Altena]

Not necessarily. They could just as easily tie the reduced CD to the improved B4B trait. Unlikely to be sure, but it's one way to avoid boosting DRG performance without enhancing anyone else who can use it.

This is semi off-topic but honestly I expected them to do this with AoE stoneskin - just tacking it on top of the WHM trait that already exists (AoE outside of battle). It baffles me as to why they are adding a whole new skill for this (perhaps for future plans when Stoneskin II will be similar to Succor?)

So I don't know if they will go this route with B4B, however there is definitely a possibility, I mean they are reducing the damage taken reduction so it is entirely possible that they are adding/adjusting the trait.

[dday3six]

*snip*

You're making positional attacks out to be more then they are. A player just needs to set one step over the line separating rear and flank, then step back and forth as needed. Many players move way more than they need to, losing DPS in the process, when all that needs to be done is press the skill and move during that skill's animation as needed.

[DragonSlayer45]

These nerfs had better not go beyond a TP increase to Aeolian Edge, Shadow Fang, etc. Ninja DPS is absolutely fine. Honestly, this constant back and forth of nerfing and buffing every job from Square Enix is getting a tad annoying at this point.