Dragoon buffs and Ninja nerfs coming Dec 9th in patch 2.45

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I never said they wouldn't lose DPS. In fact, it's pretty much assumed that anyone doing CC is going to lose DPS. A MNK solo silencing T2 is losing more than most, but their CC is still unparalleled in that regard. And yes, PLD has an unrivaled stun capability in Ifrit and Leviathan. And no, I was talking about SMN binding all of the feathers in Garuda Hard, which was a common tactic at lower gear levels. Thanks, though, for tacitly admitting that NIN CC is worse than that of the other classes.

I never said they were worse. They just suffer far less DPS loss compared to other classes - If anything, the loss is nowhere near a monk or dragoon when abilities are to be held back for CC purposes. In fact, they have it far easier compared to other DPS classes. Zophar mentioned it before: Not allowed to stun? Switch poisons! And suddenly you have an extra off CD dps ability while others aren't allowed to use it.

[Viridiana]

I never said they were worse. They just suffer far less DPS loss compared to other classes - If anything, the loss is nowhere near a monk or dragoon when abilities are to be held back for CC purposes. In fact, they have it far easier compared to other DPS classes. Zophar mentioned it before: Not allowed to stun? Switch poisons! And suddenly you have an extra off CD dps ability while others aren't allowed to use it.

. . .

I've already freely admitted that the DPS impact (or non-impact) for NIN is negligible unless you're for some crazy reason using Hyoton. I don't know why you keep mentioning the DPS aspect of it and completely ignoring my actual point, which is that NIN has less CC capability than almost any other class.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

. . .

I've already freely admitted that the DPS impact (or non-impact) for NIN is negligible unless you're for some crazy reason using Hyoton. I don't know why you keep mentioning the DPS aspect of it and completely ignoring my actual point, which is that NIN has less CC capability than almost any other class.

And I'm saying ninja's don't have inferior CC. Which is a point I am making you have failed to notice.

You're saying it's crazy for a ninja to use Hyoton, but use Summoner's Tri-disaster for example
You're also saying Monks have infinite silence capability, but it's a gigantic DPS loss. Much like Hyoton. Meanwhile, dragoon's can't even silence
You're saying Ninja's have terrible CC and use a paladin's Shield Bash as comparison

And I keep bringing up the DPS topic because CC abilities on DPS classes are rarely used for crowd control purposes. Same applies to ninja's. If there are reasons you aren't allowed to stun, Ninja's suffer less from this restriction. Ninja's CC isn't inferior. It has it's advantages and disadvantages like other CC abilities on DPS classes. But it's also far easier to use/less restricted, which the person I have quoted on in the first place failed to realise.

[Viridiana]

And I'm saying ninja's don't have inferior CC. Which is a point I am making you have failed to notice.

You're saying it's crazy for a ninja to use Hyoton, but use Summoner's Tri-disaster for example
You're also saying Monks have infinite silence capability, but it's a gigantic DPS loss. Much like Hyoton. Meanwhile, dragoon's can't even silence
You're saying Ninja's have terrible CC and use a paladin's Shield Bash as comparison

And I keep bringing up the DPS topic because CC abilities on DPS classes are rarely used for crowd control purposes. Same applies to ninja's. If there are reasons you aren't allowed to stun, Ninja's suffer less from this restriction. Ninja's CC isn't inferior. It has it's advantages and disadvantages like other CC abilities on DPS classes. But it's also far easier to use/less restricted, which the person I have quoted on in the first place failed to realise.

Except that NIN CC is worse than that of almost every other job. Again, I'm not saying it actually needs improvement. As far as I can tell, it's fully functional. But it's not equal to that of the other classes.

Are there situations where Hyoton could save a life (or group)? Sure, but there are more where Tri-disaster could.
Is it less of a sacrifice to have the NIN silence instead of the MNK? Sure, but that doesn't mean the MNK doesn't have a stronger silence.
I'm saying that NIN's CC ability, while fully serviceable, is less than that of the other classes. Is it unfair to compare it to Shield Bash? Maybe, but if I wanted to be really unfair I'd compare it to Holy.

The reason that DPS classes don't usually CC is because, in the cases where CC is essential, tanks and healers often provide better CC. Stuns? Let the PLD or WHM do it. Blind? Let the PLD do it. Silence? PLD/BRD rotation. Bind? SMN. All that's left for the NIN/MNK/DRG/WAR/SCH is to be ready in case someone screwed up. Yes, the NIN has more flexibility, and is less likely to lose DPS either way, but that doesn't actually address the *power* of the CC available to it.

[Instrumentality]

Yes, the NIN has more flexibility, and is less likely to lose DPS either way, but that doesn't actually address the *power* of the CC available to it.

Lol in what world are off-gcd binds and stuns/silences with minimal resource cost weaker than on-GCD massively wasteful resource cost moves? Just by virtue of being off-gcd they're amazing compared to any on-gcd move. The only other class that is as well off is bard.

[Viridiana]

Lol in what world are off-gcd binds and stuns/silences with minimal resource cost weaker than on-GCD massively wasteful resource cost moves? Just by virtue of being off-gcd they're amazing compared to any on-gcd move. The only other class that is as well off is bard.

Yep, that's why people made sure to bring MNK to their Mythflox runs: That oGCD stun every 40 seconds is amazing. What's that? They actually used WHM Holy spam or SCH's Shadow Flare? Are you sure? I mean, both of those are GCD abilities. . .

Frankly, the only class that's worse off is BRD, because their CC ability has a lower potency at the same CD, nevermind that NIN can make Jugulate into a stun. Remember, this is evaluating them only as CC moves, not as DPS moves.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Except that NIN CC is worse than that of almost every other job. Again, I'm not saying it actually needs improvement. As far as I can tell, it's fully functional. But it's not equal to that of the other classes.

Are there situations where Hyoton could save a life (or group)? Sure, but there are more where Tri-disaster could.
Is it less of a sacrifice to have the NIN silence instead of the MNK? Sure, but that doesn't mean the MNK doesn't have a stronger silence.
I'm saying that NIN's CC ability, while fully serviceable, is less than that of the other classes. Is it unfair to compare it to Shield Bash? Maybe, but if I wanted to be really unfair I'd compare it to Holy.

The reason that DPS classes don't usually CC is because, in the cases where CC is essential, tanks and healers often provide better CC. Stuns? Let the PLD or WHM do it. Blind? Let the PLD do it. Silence? PLD/BRD rotation. Bind? SMN. All that's left for the NIN/MNK/DRG/WAR/SCH is to be ready in case someone screwed up. Yes, the NIN has more flexibility, and is less likely to lose DPS either way, but that doesn't actually address the *power* of the CC available to it.

And here you go dragging in more irrelevant classes to this topic. Healers? Seriously? What's next? That Black Mages have apocatastasis and Ninja's don't?

You're making less and less sense. Tri-disaster could save a situation? There is only one instance where a single target bind would make or break an encounter and that used to be SCOB Turn 2. After all the nerfing binding isn't even necessary any more from any class. Be it melee DPS - as which was the topic originally - or some other class.

Monk has AoE silence, yay? But there is not a single occasion that AoE silence is necessary. All encounters where silence is even needed only requires single target silence.

And healers on stun duty? That's so unreliable, I guess White Mage have the worst stun capacity because it's near impossible to time right then!

Ninja Silence or Stun does it's job just like any other class: It silences/It stuns. At least Ninja has the access to both of them. With your logic, Dragoon and Bard CC are the worst compared to Ninja and Monks then because they only have one type that's remotely relevant to endgame content. Have I mentioned yet that nearly every boss is either immune to stun/silence or designed in a way you can do without? (4-man dungeon bosses)

Yep, that's why people made sure to bring MNK to their Mythflox runs: That oGCD stun every 40 seconds is amazing. What's that? They actually used WHM Holy spam or SCH's Shadow Flare? Are you sure? I mean, both of those are GCD abilities. . .

Which also brought up more irrelevant information to "the versatility of ninja" within this topic
Which is also another too specific scenario to compare. 40s oGCD stun? You don't need a monk for that. Considering there's always a tank around, a warrior or paladin can solo stun anything in Brayflox - or other 4 man content for that matter - perfectly fine