Tanking habits

[Noxifer]

Which is exactly your thinking problem. yes the DRG is doing 900DPS but to each of those 6 mobs he is doing 150 dps. Now the rate with which the mobs die will still be that of a DRG doing 150 dps to each of them. which means each of them will die 4 times slower than if the drg single targeted them individually. This is 4 times more up time of the tank getting hit. and assuming they all die at the same time. it would have been faster to take each of them down individually at 400-500 dps than it would to take them down at 150 dps.

Umm... What?

Say a mob can take 450 damage before dying (to make it easier)

Fighting 6 mobs one by one, but doing 450 damage per rotation, it means 6 mobs take 6 rotations to die.

Fighting 6 mobs together, but doing 150 AoE damage per rotation, it means 6 mobs take 3 rotations to die (3x150, applied to all mobs).

So yes, the mobs die faster individually, but the end result is still that the 6 mobs are dead much faster if you AoE them down. If you increase the numbers and have 9 mobs in the same group, they still take 3 rotations to die, since all enemies take the same damage from one attack. One by one, they'd take 9 rotations to die.

(Note: I'm using "damage per rotation" instead of "damage per second", since it just looked silly saying 6 mobs took 6 seconds to die :3 And since it's really late, I don't trust myself to go for higher numbers and get the math accurate ^^; )

But yes, it does mean that some of the mobs will damage the tank for longer. Which is why you have defensive cooldowns. When I pull three mobs, I rarely have to bother with defensive cooldowns, because I don't take much damage from them (expert roulette dungeons exempt, since those mobs do hit harder :3 ). If the tank isn't geared for a speed run, or the healer isn't geared to heal a speed run -- or the dps aren't geared enough to support a speed run by killing things quickly enough -- then a speed run will not work. You wipe, and get to start over again.

Personally I prefer killing things group by group, but if I have a healer I trust and if I have at least one (well-geared) AoE-heavy class, I can pull two or three groups even in dungeons I'm not that familiar with. The only places I've ever pulled more than that is Brayflox HM and Wanderer's Palace. Mainly because I'm familiar enough with those two places to know how much I can take. And that's often because I've had healers or dps who've told me to "pull more". If I see the "someone is new to this place", I never do it. And especially in WP, I do tend to take the time while waiting for the dungeon to start to check out the gear of the rest. If one or more people are still in i70 gear or below, I'll limit pulls to two or three groups at the most; even with a non-overgeared healer, that's how much I know I can handle -- heck, I've had a scholar on lazymode (aka /follow on someone in the group) in there, with just Eos keeping me alive through that XD

As for the "pull mobs into boss rooms", I suspect those would be either troll tanks or failed lockouts (where you pull mobs to just outside the boss room, tank stays just on the inside and someone pulls the boss over -- once the area is locked, the mobs de-aggro and go back to their spots).

Yes, some tanks do seem to like biting off more than they can chew, but for at least some of those I actually suspect it's because they've always been told by DFed people to "pull more!" (and when they don't, been called 'crap tank' and people drop out) and then think that's what you're supposed to do if you want to be a good tank, instead of realizing it's more the opposite way around. That was one of the reasons I stopped DFing dungeons for a long while, back when I was still learning, and only went with friends.

This only count for high level dungeons. In low level dungeon the gear is only ~ 4 level over the dungeon level.

Except he was talking about Wanderer's Palace and upwards.... which means lvl50 dungeons o.o

[TomTom1968]

I main a BLM so I love it, if the Tank does big pulls lol. But if the Tank doesn't inspect the Healer (who might be 40 levels below him), he shouldn't wonder if a mass pull doesn't work out. When I tank, I ask before I pull half of the map. And if there isn't at least one AOE friendly DPS character in the group, I don't do mass pulls at all.

[Adrian74]

Well, it's easier to say.... Full combo against one monster = (for putting some number: 500 + 750 + 900) = 2150... Now an AoE that deals 300 multiplied against 4 enemies = 1200 x 3 times (The time it takes to do the full combo) = 3600

AoE is always more profitable to do when more than 3 enemies, as well as you can fully do it without running out of TP of course.

[Gimorian401]

The big pull tanking habit definitely comes from having that 1 or 2 heavy AoE party but also from the more experienced players pushing the tank to do the bigger pulls, when everyone wants it you tend to listen.

The worst habit I see in tanks is the "I'll pull that group of 3 or 4 mobs. I wont mark I wont use AoE hate gain and attack one mob at a time." Just as bad is the I only use AoE abilities to tank. You say tanking is boring and all you do is big pull AoE, well no kidding its boring.

All aspects tanking, healing and DPS should learn to look at the party, their experience and every after a pull or two skill level and just learn what works and enjoy the ride.

Almost forgot. Just because tanking waits are nil does not mean that when you see a dungeon you dont want you should just ditch.

[Fated]

OP, you need math lessons. Also, you need lessons in "fun."

[Waeksyn]

What I hate is tanks that fake you out. They collect up a group of mobs then stop. As soon as I put down Flaming Arrow, they're off again. Sometimes, they move only a few steps and don't actually grab any additional mobs. So frustrating.

[LineageRazor]

I don't bother telling random tanks to pull more, but I'm quick to show my disgust with any tank I know trying to slow pull a dungeon because I'm on my monk

I've been guilty of that - but in my defense, it came from MNKs themselves telling me that they have crap aoe. Now that I've actually leveled MNK to 50, though, I'm not so sure that's true. Rockbreaker is pretty powerful, and even when Perfect Balance runs dry, Arm of the Destroyer does okay damage against large groups (I'll take 50 potency per mob from AoD over 150 potency on a single mob from Bootshine).

I've pretty much stopped putting on the kid gloves just because of party composition.

Right now, my latest challenge is finding a group that can handle all nine pirates in the final room at the end of Sastasha (Hard). I've tried this a few times, and come SOOO close, but haven't managed to finish them all without a wipe. Things will probably change as more people (including me) gear up in Ironworks and such.

[Ashkendor]

Right now, my latest challenge is finding a group that can handle all nine pirates in the final room at the end of Sastasha (Hard). I've tried this a few times, and come SOOO close, but haven't managed to finish them all without a wipe. Things will probably change as more people (including me) gear up in Ironworks and such.

I've done this pull successfully as tank, dps, and healer. It's fun on any of them. As tank I am admittedly spoiled as I run the dungeons in a full premade (half of my raiding static) of PLD i113, WHM i111, and x2 BLM i113.

As a bonus, it's followed by a mob that summons another huge pull. ^^

[OranKells]

I always look at the party before I decide what I'm pulling; but 9 times out of 10 I find it easy and faster to do mass pulls, when the dungeons are tuned to levels 50-80 and most people are i110 now, there is very few instances where I can't pull half the room.

[Alukah]

Right now, my latest challenge is finding a group that can handle all nine pirates in the final room at the end of Sastasha (Hard). I've tried this a few times, and come SOOO close, but haven't managed to finish them all without a wipe. Things will probably change as more people (including me) gear up in Ironworks and such.

We did that pull in our very first run but then again my usual premade is used to reckless pulls.

As for the adds that keep appearing after that last pirate comes, I just burn the pirate a bit so two sets of pirates spawn instead of one and then do a massive slaughter, tho healer may or not die in the process