2.4 SMN Class Issues

[athenia]

I totally agree, giving it too much regen would indeed be OP, but to run out of mana on long term fights makes it hard to keep up numbers (solo Target), i mean yes they shouldnt be the highest, but i still and will believe they should be far from the lowest. Even without Ruin 2 spam the mp drain is vastly.

I think spellspeed should have any worth if it would make the dots tick faster like Dino said. But we will see suppose.

far from lowest cause of what ? theres no reason why a smn should do more dmg than drg, nin, monk or blm. ur at the same lvl as a bard, i would say even higher if played well and i really see no reason why u should outdmg the other classes.

that thin with spellspeed is a a good idea, but there are several more things they need to change if the want to do a mechanic like that.

[Havenchild]

-snip-

A summoner in theory should excel at something over a BLM though otherwise there becomes no reason to play the class. If you were to then say combat raise, tell me how is this useful when FCOB quite literally punishes death to begin (tethers in both T10 and T11)

Ideally SMN should be better in the single target department but in actuality it isn't. Why else did they buff BLM when it was suffering from all the movement in SCOB? Mainly because it started getting shunned in those turns. SMN is already falling to this because of bards being forced to use an MP song exclusively for them sometimes. Not as efficient to do its job.

[athenia]

A summoner in theory should excel at something over a BLM though otherwise there becomes no reason to play the class. If you were to then say combat raise, tell me how is this useful when FCOB quite literally punishes death to begin (tethers in both T10 and T11)

so then tell me, why u should ever play a blm when smn outdmg him ?
combat rais not useful? dude pls. if a heal dies its not useful to raise him? cmon thats bullshit and u know it.

a summoner should only outdmg other jobs when there is a fight where u can dot 2 or 3 targets over a longer duration. i know manaprobs, and yes i do think the cost should be lowered, but no dmg buff needed at all. singletarget they shoud stay where they are.

[silentstack]

so then tell me, why u should ever play a blm when smn outdmg him ?

A BLM excels in the burst and sustained AoE-damage department in addition to being completely self-sufficient.

combat rais not useful? dude pls. if a heal dies its not useful to raise him? cmon thats bullshit and u know it.

If you talk about a SMNs combat raise in a dungeon environment, it is useful and should be used there.
During raids, however, raising another party member severely hits your mana and lessens your dps - and the BRDs dps in the long run. Also, as Havenchild stated, FCOB has a numerous mechanics were deaths are punished so harshly that you might as well wipe/have wiped.

[Judge_Xero]

The sphere takes half the damage from magical attacks though ? So the difference during that part won't be as big as you think especially since I am on the cube the whole phase and only switch to the sphere towards the end if the other DPS are slacking.

I'll have to double check. I thought that the DOT damage being Neutral bypassed the 1/2 Magic damage.

From what I know about the fight as well, you can Miasma the Egg to stop it, stand close to get the shield buff and that lets you attack it. Then the others don't need to be kited. Still pretty good damage potential.

Was thinking about this recently, and I actually have a question re: MP issues. I'm no Summoner and I've no idea how much Piety you'd need to make it matter, but if you melded head + hands + belt with Piety IVs/Piety IIIs, would that make any difference in Turn 10-13? You'd be missing out on Crit on the head and Accuracy on the belt/hands, but I was curious how much MP you'd need to offset the issues SMN has in FCoB. Is it too significant to mend through just materia?

You would need to meld 134 Piety to reach 4k MP - that value giving you 1600 MP/min refresh +800 MP Aetherflow would keep you from going OOM for about 8 mins using nothing but Ruin II in your normal roation. You would probably need 100% AA damage to compensate for the loss of say not putting 134 DET just doing a normal rotation and conserving MP.

[athenia]

A BLM excels in the burst and sustained AoE-damage department in addition to being completely self-sufficient.

During raids, however, raising another party member severely hits your mana and lessens your dps - and the BRDs dps in the long run..

so a smn, if hes able to bane a RS and contagioned set of dots to 4 targets does no massive aoe dmg? u can even save ur enkidle for that to have some aoe burst.
but i guess u can play smn or? and as i said - summoners should get their manacost reduced, so they can dot more targets without getting oom.

lol so u want to tell me, if a whm or a sch dies u instantly wipe the grp? if the WHM dies and u raise him, the bard will play a manasong and ull get ur mana back for sure.
same with the sch. Sure there are parts of the fight where u just cant die cause u need dmg or heal or whatever, but its not a wipe every single time.

[Sequora]

far from lowest cause of what ? theres no reason why a smn should do more dmg than drg, nin, monk or blm. ur at the same lvl as a bard, i would say even higher if played well and i really see no reason why u should outdmg the other classes.

that thin with spellspeed is a a good idea, but there are several more things they need to change if the want to do a mechanic like that.

I really don't even know where to begin with this. Why is SMN on the same level as BRD? BRD gives buffs that affect ALL party members within range. SMN shouldn't be dealing more damage, but should be on par with BLM MNK DRG NIN. NIN has more utility than SMN does and it's currently sitting on top with MNK. Damage between DPS classes should be close enough where the higher DPS is the person who plays the job better. Battle rez is the most overrated utility spell in the game. Is it nice to have? Yes. Once your group has mastered a fight you really shouldn't need it for the clear anyways.

[TrivariumOri]

lol so u want to tell me, if a whm or a sch dies u instantly wipe the grp?

The majority of the time this is the case, the strain on the party and the reduction in effective mana management and dps is enough to constitute a wipe. It's much easier to wipe and redo the phase cleanly than to lose the dps and flow of the raid.

[athenia]

I really don't even know where to begin with this. Why is SMN on the same level as BRD? BRD gives buffs that affect ALL party members within range. SMN shouldn't be dealing more damage, but should be on par with BLM MNK DRG NIN. NIN has more utility than SMN does and it's currently sitting on top with MNK. Damage between DPS classes should be close enough where the higher DPS is the person who plays the job better. Battle rez is the most overrated utility spell in the game. Is it nice to have? Yes. Once your group has mastered a fight you really shouldn't need it for the clear anyways.

he talked about being higher than others, not at the same lvl and i see no reason why smn should be higher or equal on single target. if they would be higher or equal, they would be on top if they can dot more than one target.

[Dinocat]

In response to the community posts regarding a few points of my post, I would like to address the 2 aspects of SMN utility and the comparison of BLM to SMN that many seem to bring up.


Breaking down the SMN utility skills:

Eye for an Eye – WHM/BLM/SCH Shared; useful but not game breaking to have and not SMN exclusive

Virus (+Job Bonus) – BLM/WHM/SCH Shared; Reduced DMG debuff, 1 min Boss restriction; no encounter at this current time requires 2 SMN/SCH Viruses to be used consecutively to result in completion; and to factor in this is rarely a deal maker.

Resurrection (res):

There seems to be a misconception about the viability of Res outside of farm or non-endgame content.

To specify, endgame content is expressed entirely in this aspect as minimal gear for maximum efficiency versus content. (IE. completing T10-13 in 110/melded 110 with minimal 120/130 pieces.)

The only point in which death in a raid is reasonably recoverable or even practical is when one overgears the encounter enough to allow for such a mistakes. This is not the case that I speak of when discussing these issues.

A SMN res consumes a significant amount of mana, resulting in a massive DPS loss. In a progression environment, Res is a non-factor in selecting composition. The encounters do not allow you to die and still meet the DPS check or mana management requirement. [IF the SMN received a no or very low cost mana res, this may become a more arguable point.]

My original reference notes were expressed entirely from the perspective of capabilities of classes in estimated 110 vs ability to complete content (class DPS output capacity). I would imagine once you attain 130 parts and start to overgear the encounter, many of these issues will seem less of a problem.

What overgearing an encounter allows is to bring non-optimal class compositions and still complete the content; this does not address the issue that there are classes and compositions that are clearly better.

When broken down the fundamental issue of class balance will still exist. For example (the world first kill composition) broken down by DPS capacity estimates:

MNK/MNK/BRD/BLM –Assuming 1 Dragon Kick (480+/500+/400+/450+) [1830+ Raid DPS]
Vs
MNK/BRD/BLM/SMN – 480+/400+/450+/430+ [1760+ raid DPS]

Using a 70+ Raid DPS difference in composition as estimate; the factor of 70+ DPS over a say 13 minute fight; comes out to 54,600 Damage. 70 DPS may not seem a massive value, but when a boss has 1 million HP+, that total value comes out to 5% health. That is a massive difference.

Now, with the already existing top end difference shown, let us say someone in the group with the SMN dies and the SMN utility of res is used; is that really going to assist the raid in doing +70 extra DPS? Not in the least.

Death in content that you do not overgear will mostly result in a wipe for your raid unless you are already close to the kill.

One may look at this example and state this as either a positive note for the MNK class, or a negative note for every other class. I see no issue with the current capacity output of melee classes, or the fact that they are dominant versus others. They bring less utility but allow them to become a standing turret of damage. [Though currently it appears the Ninja class brings both, and competes with the MNK class.]

The MNK vs NIN issue and the future of these 2 classes are beyond the scope of this thread or my understanding of the classes, therefore, I will not speak further on this.

The primary issue is the exponential difference in output capacity between DoM and DoW classes in raid environments.


BLM and SMN comparisons:

A few notes have been posted concerning SMN DPS gain if they become too mana efficient. I fail to see the relation of SMN DPS increasing due to being able to dot more targets. If granted better mana efficiency, this would allow SMNs to sustain their current damage capacity for longer, but in effect it would not drastically increase their capacity as a whole.

By nature of the class, if there were 2 bosses of equal health on 2 sides of the room, which allowed for SMN to put full strength DoTs on both, in effect this could result in the SMN being top DPS for that specific encounter. However, is this not the nature of the encounter as opposed to the nature of the class? [No such fight exists at this time.]

It also seems people misunderstand the base of SMN damage as a whole. 30% of our damage is limited to single target via pet, 10% via single target ruin, 15-20% single target if allowed to use only fester with pre-ruin 2, 5% Shadow Flare, totaling 65% single target limitation; thus 3 DoTs can be estimated at approximately a 35% DPS increase per additional target. Using a breakdown of 430 DPS cap [430 x 35% = 150 DPS], an additional target would allow the SMN to push 580 DPS for the fight if and only when optimal uptime and dot ticks were allowed. [Keeping in mind this maximum potential is only achievable if the SMN has the mana capacity, and even with an infinite mana pool, the DPS would not increase further.]

[Note also the time of recasting on multiple targets individually result in downtime of fillers, though only by a small percentage, there is a DPS loss that can result in not attaining a pure 35% gain; possible leaning closer towards 30% in theory.]

The SMN will never out DPS a MNK/NIN/BLM in single target, I do not see any balance being broken in an environment that is friendlier to the SMN class occurs, that such the case result in higher DPS for a SMN. Just as a single target boss favors a single target class.

Alternately, a SMN will never outdamage a BLM in an AoE environment, even if Bane was not capped at 3 target transfer. Why? The SMN DoT total that ticks every 3 seconds is not equal to the capacity of a BLMs AoE per hit damage. Due to the nature of 65% of our DPS being limited to a single target, each additional mob would be equivalent to a 35% DPS increase maximum per mob. Due to the potency of a single BLM hit being greater than a DoT tick every 3 seconds, BLM will never lose in the AoE fight to a SMN. This in its own right is currently balanced and should not change.

A SMN is technically incapable of doing more DPS on grouped targets, and only possible if and when there are mobs out of the BLM AoE capability.

By nature, SMN DPS is limited to DoT ticks. Casting more dots, or faster, does not increase the DPS of a SMN. DoTs tick every 3 seconds for a set amount, only advanced further by Foes Requiem or a Raging Strikes. For example, an increased mana cap on a BLM allowing them to stay in Astral Fire 3, throwing more Fire IIs in that phase, would effectively increase the capacity of BLM, but such is not the case with the SMN class. The nature of our damage is limited at a cap of the total tick of 3 DoTs every 3 seconds. The SMN DPS value is a constant and does not fluctuate based on mana.

To conclude, the current BLM vs SMN DPS capabilities are balanced, and do not require a change. BLM doing more single target and better AoE are only trumped by SMN under 1 specified condition; when targets are separated beyond AoE range. This seems very fair a tradeoff to the nature and style of these 2 classes.


Finally:

On a personal note, I am disappointed with some of the responses regarding the class issues in response to comparison of other classes on a 1 to 1 comparison (DRG vs SMN, SMN vs BLM). This is not a topic about how 1 DPS class should be better than another; I am purely expressing the shortcoming of my class in reference to all viability in a raid composition. Though I am expressing that there should be consideration in closing the gap between DoM and DoW classes respectively.

1 on 1, each class has its own advantages, but this is not a game that runs 1 DPS/1Tank/1Healer, therefore I approach this in terms of raid composition as a holistic comparison.