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  1. #981
    Player
    Bishop81's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    806
    Character
    Eldon Pierce
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Camalott View Post
    What you described is pretty much exactly how they worked in FFXI. Which I would honestly be all for.

    On the note of the ACN and DoTs, I only say keep them because they fit the theme of essentially using disease as a weapon. That seems to be the ACN 'theme.' I don't agree with it. It doesn't seem as tactical as it does more so seem like biological warfare.

    Honestly, ACN always felt more like it should be a utility class that helps enhance battlefield effectiveness and controls the flow of combat. Just like how the BRD did in FFXI. Maybe throw in some trapper abilities for tactical flare.
    Actually that's the odd thing, nowhere in lore does it say anything about "Biowarfare".

    It's a magic using class that relies on tactics and calculation. "Setting things up for the desired results."

    I can understand the use of status effects but Bio and Miasma are normally used by "toxic" monsters.
    (1)
    Last edited by Bishop81; 11-20-2014 at 04:02 AM.

  2. #982
    Player

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,561
    I do not think needs major re-balancing or any major changes at all but one thing that would entice me more to play as one would be more pets/minions/companions/beasts can summon, it's a summoner yet is very limited in what it can actually summon which is very odd in principle. Maybe the potential problem with the class is it's name. When first saw it as a class/job in this game I thought oh cool I want one because the idea of summoning many beasts and demons perhaps even a primal to fight for and with you would be great fun, upon looking more into it and realizing for the most part is can barely be called a summoner and more akin to a glorified DoT class/job...I was put off making one.
    (1)
    Last edited by Snugglebutt; 11-20-2014 at 04:03 AM.

  3. #983
    Player
    Deliciou5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    196
    Character
    Mortis Deus
    World
    Malboro
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop81 View Post
    Actually that's the odd thing, nowhere in lore does it say anything about "Biowarfare".

    It's a magic using class that relies on tactics and calculation. "Setting things up for the desired results."

    I can understand the use of status effects but Bio and Miasma are normally used by "toxic" monsters.
    That is pretty much one of the reasons why arcanist doesn't feel right for summoner and why the class/job system is fundamentally broken. It's like how conjurer has aero/stone/water and why conjurer feels more akin to geomancer than to whm. Arcanists abilities feel more like cross class abilities than summoner's abilities. They are already starting to feel the strain of the system when they make classless jobs like dark knight just so they can make it the way they wanted.

    That is why it's even more of a shame that they probably won't change the nature of summoner's relationship with arcanists so easily without adding brand new abilities to summoner without making arcanists abilities completely redundant. Tri-disaster is an example of failed ability to make summoner and arcanist sync together. It could easily just be a arcanist ability by itself and they would have called it ruin 3 and it would have nothing to do with summoning at all.

    So when summoners get new abilities at level 60 that actually have to do with summoning capability they will either just add new summon(s) in that are not used over garuda due to contagion thus falling behind other classes due to wasted ability slot(s),or the new pets will be incredibly badass and they will form new strategies that have nothing to do with DOT's or at the very least very little to do with DOT's and they will be backseat to new forms of damage or utility. Like shiva making burst damage abilities more potent so ruin/tridisaster become the primary damage like blm's nukes thus competeing with blm for same slot and/or ramuh could easily add powerful utility like enthunder that stuns enemies special attacks and does extra damage per hit for whole party that outweigh anything any other pet would do because the combined utility and damage between all party members would outweigh one jobs damage capability therefore it would be useful to have buff up for whole party.

    The best solution would be to switch between multiple pets between garuda and ramuh, if shiva is not more powerful than both. So in the end if garuda is still best with contagion then other pets still are useless and summoner becomes gimped, or new abilities become even more disappointing and SE AND players ends up hating the class/job system even more due to the fact its even more abilities that feel useless at max level.

    Most people say we are disillusion to ask for sweeping changes or overhauls to the job when in fact just 10 levels of new abilities for summoner would more than make our case no matter what way it went. It is extremely ironic that they insist that we don't know what we are talking about or that we won't eventually get our way.

    It's funny that garuda and carby both have abilities that exactly mirror each other...Shining emerald and contagion. Do you think all the new pets are going to receive ANOTHER copy of this same exact ability when ifrit and titan don't even have it? Titan is good for soloing, and who really uses ifrit during end game and is not gimped? Will shiva/ramuh/levi egi's be any different?

    It's why they only want to talk about QoL changes when they KNOW other jobs won't just receive QoL changes. It's like they are trying to ignore the elephant in the room. Who is delusional here?People who expect the job to remain DOT focused without the new abilities becoming near useless like ifrit/titan/tri disaster for endgame OR DOT abilities to become significantly less important due to new pets or abilities outshining older ones like garuda's contagion? Gaurda becoming less important would make the DOT rotation that much harder to keep up and be viable. DOT's will not be obsolete but summoner will have more than one way of maximizing damage than just outside of DOT and you would have to choose which way you would want to go in order to maximize damage potential.

    DOT's would be become secondary casts instead of primary focus so summoners would cast spells that are either DD or Buffs and good summoners would be able sneak in DOT's that are essential rather than all of them.Kinda like how good whm's can sneak in Aero I and II in without sacrificing cure's.

    So in recap you either:
    1.Keep DOT's a focus and make new pets useless you have abilities like contagion/shining emerald a standard for every pet.(which honestly seems unlikely due to developers not adding them to titan or ifrit)
    OR
    2.You have more pets like ifrit or titan but give them new abilities that outshine contagion and make DOT's take a backseat to more Buff's or DD abilities.

    No matter what level cap increase means changes on the scale of close to an overhaul. The job either remains exactly the same due to a bunch of useless abilities EVERY summoner will hate and feel screwed by, OR brand new abilities that will change main focus of job.
    (1)
    Last edited by Deliciou5; 11-20-2014 at 05:27 AM.

  4. #984
    Player
    Delily's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    666
    Character
    Delmania Shadowstar
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Camalott View Post
    What you described is pretty much exactly how they worked in FFXI. Which I would honestly be all for.
    From what I have been told, the the design team actively decided against because, partially, it was too passive. They wanted the focus to be on the warrior of light, not his pets. Also, there's a problem whereby once the pet is gone, you're useless. The FFXI version would not work here because there are not subjobs that provide skills that can be used when pets are either not summoned or on cooldown.
    (0)

  5. #985
    Player Akiza's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    1,377
    Character
    Rhel Eryut
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Most people thought the Summoner was going to be more akin to a Demonology Warlock mastering summoning magic, embodying the Primals and summoning the Primal Egis to aide them in battle, but instead we ended up with something more akin to a glorified Affliction Warlock which turned people off. SE should not have called this Job a Summoner they should've just extended the Arcanist into it's own Job since it's a stand alone anyways.
    (0)

  6. #986
    Player
    Camalott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    74
    Character
    Mac May
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 50
    Think I'm talking myself into a corner here.

    To set things straight:

    - Do I wish SMN in XIV was like the SMN in XI: absolutely.
    - Do I think it would work with the mechanics of XIV: now way in the world. Not without completely breaking it off from under ACN and making it its own class.
    - Am I happy with the state of SMN in XIV: no.

    I am simply upset that it doesn't feel like the weight of the summon itself is substantial enough to call ourselves summoners. There is no art nor nuance to summoning. It's simply making sure Garuda stays out so you can pop Contagion. That's not to say you don't manage the summon. You still keep track of the other CD's.

    XI destroyed my concept of what the SMN 'could' be. It made me jaded and one-sided.

    Despite that discomfort, I'm still a SMN right now. I plan to be one for a good long time.
    (0)

    FFXI: Marato - Quetzalcoatl BLM/SMN/BRD
    FFXIV: Mac May - Exodus MNK/SMN/BRD

  7. #987
    Player
    Delily's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    666
    Character
    Delmania Shadowstar
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Camalott View Post
    T
    XI destroyed my concept of what the SMN 'could' be. It made me jaded and one-sided.
    That's the core problem, most people here want an FFXI summoner in FFXIV. But's that just loaded with nostalgia because the summoner was nothing more than a second rate whm with a bigger MP pool, and then later a second rate scholar. Sure, the avatars had some nice moves, but it's not like you sit there and weave their abilities in and out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akiza View Post
    Most people thought the Summoner was going to be more akin to a Demonology Warlock mastering summoning magic, embodying the Primals and summoning the Primal Egis to aide them in battle, but instead we ended up with something more akin to a glorified Affliction Warlock which turned people off. SE should not have called this Job a Summoner they should've just extended the Arcanist into it's own Job since it's a stand alone anyways.
    Did you ever play a demonology warlock? Because most of the time, they simply use the *guard since it does the most damage. It's not as if they weave in spellcasting with Meta and pet summons. For the most part it's pretty much switching in and out of meta to keep your wrath for going too high or too low. There's very little interaction with the pet, minus using Axe Toss at key moments for the stun.
    (1)

  8. #988
    Player
    Eggnook24's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Ul'Dah - Exodus
    Posts
    569
    Character
    Egg Soup
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 50
    Idea:

    An ability to siphon entire party's mana (aether) by 75% to summon an almost full primal for crazy spike damage, sort of an additional limit break. They would have to time it strategically so healers and PLD won't be out of commission. That would definitely be "Strategy" as per the lore, and make parties want a SMN for very specific turns.

    I'm sure there's possible issues with this idea, but it could strengthen team-oriented gameplay, while utilizing lore and the demand for more power from the Summoners out there.

    Anyway, just an idea.
    (0)

  9. #989
    Player
    dday3six's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    199
    Character
    River's Edge
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Deliciou5 View Post
    *snip*
    Contagion saves MP, due to having to reapply DOTS less often. Garuda is strictly better in only that sense. Ifrit actually has higher DPS. If the MP issue were resolved by some means you'd see more Summoners using Ifrit. This also translates to other new Egi in the future as well.

    From 31 to 50 classes gets 5 skills, all at the same level. This is done so when Devs design content they can put an entry/sync level to know what skills each Class/Job will have, and design accordingly. If new skills are Class skills, SCH will have them too, so they would need to fit for them as well. Likely we'll see upgraped spells, Ruin III for example, so most classes will play very closely to how they do now in that case. Job skills are the only ones going to SNM only. Each class gets 5 Job skills. 1 every 5 levels. Safe assumption is SE will continue syncing the levels Jobs get skills, cause it's easier to balance content.

    Going from the current system from 31-50 is 10 skills in 20 levels. Just how many do you think SE is going to add in 10 levels. If SE continues the current system which I think they will it looks like 5. 3 for the class, and 2 for the Job. That is hardly enough for an overhaul scale change.
    (0)

  10. #990
    Player
    Deliciou5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    196
    Character
    Mortis Deus
    World
    Malboro
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by dday3six View Post
    >=D
    What skills you think are going to be added to blm?Drg?Mnk?NIN? Then compare them in your mind with what skills you think that should be added to summoner.

    Maybe i am wrong and they will only each get a little stronger and across the board QoL will be abound for every job and no job will change that much.

    In the end though unless they solve the mp issue i don't see summoner keeping up when other jobs like BLM get better nukes and utility especially considering thaum. and blm are both catered to the same type of role. Where SMN and SCH both share arcanist.
    (0)
    Last edited by Deliciou5; 11-20-2014 at 08:12 AM.

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