Consolidated thread of DoH suggestions - post 2.4

[Sibyll]

I'd like to see DoH crafting classes vary more greatly between each crafter. In it's current state any two DoH classes play the same because they will all have the same cross class skills. Rotations only vary based on recipe class (ex: 40 dur 2* or 80 dur 4*). Compare this to a DoW/DoM class where any two DPS play different.

That being said, I'd like to see them either remove cross class skills all together, or begin releasing recipes that remove the ability to use cross class skills (similar to some of the Ixali Quests). This would allow them to create synths that are difficult because of the skill sets that the class is limited to rather than absurd Quality/Progress values and RNG dependence. Overall I think it's very bad design to have the crafting system rely so heavily on crafters having all their classes to 50.

If they want to still encourage cross class, then maybe have two associated sub-crafts, similar to how jobs can cross class with two other classes. It might actually add some diversity and make a Blacksmith feel like he's different from a Goldsmith and a Carpenter in more ways than just the types of gear they produce.

I think the DoL classes could be flushed out a bit as well.

[RiceisNice]

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The classes already differ out from what they can make. If you take cross classing out of the equation, they'd need to redo end game crafting as a whole to accommodate that. Othewise, certain recipes will be impossible to reach; I just shudder at trying to do a 3* furnisher craft as a CRP without ingeunity or PbP, on top of the only durability skill I'd have is MMII.

[Sibyll]

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They could have new recipes be like Ixali quest lines where those specific recipes don't allow cross class skills. That way they could implement diversity without having to redo older meaningless content.

Furthermore, the recipes you make offers little difference in how the class is played. Explain to me how making a Darksteel Ingot on a Blacksmith differs from making Growth Formula Delta Concentrate on an Alchemist. It doesn't. A Blacksmith with 50s in all crafting classes can play any other crafting class equally well with no prior experience.

To elaborate my point, take Monk and Dragoon. Both are melee DPS, but I can assure you that a person that's has played only Monk can't go to Dragoon and play it equally well because there are those little differences that show the difference between an experience Dragoon and someone that just started playing it and read a rotation online.

I'd like to see more crafting progression that tests your skill as a good Blacksmith or Carpenter rather than treating all crafting classes as generic crafting classes.

[RiceisNice]

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Because the ixali quest recipes are designed with that restriction in mind.

You're trying to see crafting classes to have a different playstyle from each other, just as the combat classes do. But now here's the thing, you're comparing combat to crafting; both completely different beasts.

You're correct in that crafting an individual item is no different than another because you have access to all the skills, but the requirement and stats of star crafting are tuned with this in mind. Without adjusting the durability, difficulty and quaility of wolfram, try and 100% HQ it with only BSM skills. Now do the same for alchemy and with only alchemy skills. If we want to step away from cross skilling on crafting classes, they'd need to redo nearly all star recipes and furnishing to accommodate.

http://link.ffxivcrafter.com/?id=cbb74 is an example of what I'm talking about. As a CRP, you only have access to base skills, rumination and bygrot's blessing. It's impossible for you to even finish this without cross skills.

And again, crafting is a turn-based thing. We can argue semantics, but this is mostly planning your steps based on numbers, not skill-oriented on your performance. What you're suggesting would require a complete overhaul of the system, when for the most part it works and it differentiates itself from the typical "click-n-wait" process that other MMOs use.

I really cant see how you can make crafting classes standout from each other aside from what they can make, because even if we try your suggestion and future recipes would lock out cross class skills, so many of them are so situation that it's really ineffective on its own. Alchemist would be heavily reliant on RNG, CRP can't prolong it's craft to make use out of rumination, etc etc. On top of that they all share the same base skills that the standard-to-go crafting process would be the same anyway... only that CUL will laugh at everyone else with SHII and hasty touch.

[Sibyll]

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That's why I said "new" recipes. As in future recipes added later on. I agree it would be stupid to go back and redo everything.

Similar to how certain Synths say "Hiqh-Quality Unavailable" for housing items or "Aspect: Earth" for certain recipes you could have a designator that says "Cross Class Skills Unavailable" for certain higher level crafts. These crafts would be designed with each specific craft in mind and the specific skills that the specific class has available in mind.

Remember that some of the housing items are balanced around the idea that you can't HQ them and are given absurd progress bars to make PbP be completely required to do them. All of the crafting classes more or less have a theme associated with them: Alchemy is all about CP, Carpentry is about Inner Quiet Stacks, Armorsmith is about taking big chunks out of the progress bar etc. I don't see why it's so difficult to grasp that Alchemy recipes would be balanced around the skills they have available to them, because only an Alchemist can attempt the recipes.

Honestly, I think the system needs a complete overhaul. The crafting system is becoming more and more like a gimmicky WoW crafting system. There are a lot of people that play the game just to craft, and are quite disappointed that SE is treating the crafting system like a time sink for DoW/DoMs rather than as it's own entity. Gearing crafters is becoming arguable more difficult than gearing a DoW/DoM class for all the wrong reasons.

You seem content with crafting being a secondary thought just like most MMOs treat it, I'd like to see it be something more. I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[RiceisNice]

I don't see why it's so difficult to grasp that Alchemy recipes would be balanced around the skills they have available to them...

You seem content with crafting being a secondary thought just like most MMOs treat it, I'd like to see it be something more. I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The thing is, the way it is now it's hard to do so without redoing the class abilities themselves instead of the recipes. How does alchemy work on getting that CP? CZ works on prolonging the craft with TotT and durability restoration, which requires RNGjeesus to be merciful with good conditions. CRP works off IQ stacks, but they can't spare the CP to build it up because they are limited by durability and CP since they can't hasty touch. Weaver has nothing going for it except guaranteed synthesis, which can be done with SH+basic synthesis by other classes, the list goes on.

The biggest gate to this is CP for most classes in order to use their skills effectively yet maintain the concept of crafting (unless we do away with HQ and quality, something I'd also be against) because the majority of it will be spent on durability restoration and quality increase.

Yeah, quite frankly that's how I'd see crafting and gathering in a typical mmo game. It exists to make equipment and consumables for other aspects of the game, and I like how they handled the crafting aspect of it instead of being a straight up stare-at-progress-bar that most games do. Though I can agree that I don't like how they handled 4* star crafting, in regards to gating the recipe books themselves by RNG and the materials by beast tribe and more RNG.

[Sibyll]

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They most certainly would need to revisit skills. Some of the crafting skills are just down right useless. Flawless synthesis, Rumination, Careful Synthesis I (after you've gotten II), Basic Touch (once you get Careful Synthesis II) etc. Other skills are just too good: Byregot's is required to do anything, Comfort Zone is literally free CP, Steady Hand II/Hasty Touch are also required. The following point extends to combat classes as well: Cross Class skills cease to offer diversity and choice when they are required to do anything end-game related. If you are going to design it this way then you might as well just give the class the skills in the first place.

Also, Basic Synthesis+Steady Hand I costs 22 CP, Careful Synthesis I/II are both free (in the case of II it's also better than a Basic touch which is quite idiotic balance).

I don't want them to do away with HQing, but I'd like to see this expanded upon. I'm glad that recent progress in the crafting system has made HQ base materials much more valuable now that 100% HQ from NQ mats isn't really possible.

It was obvious that's how you view crafting; most MMOs treat it like that and that's fine. I, and I'm sure many people who enjoy crafting, would like to see it be treated as a more integral part of the game. SWG is an example of a game that did exactly that.