When is it OK to say, "It's Not OK"

[Tiggy]

BTW the clear sellers are not 100% unrelated. They are just a tiny but clear visible piece of a large iceberg.

Those clear sellers don't prevent anyone from working on the turns. They don't stop anyone from grabbing friends, queuing up, and working on it until they get a win. If you want to down T5 so bad then people should spent less time fuming about clear sellers and more time in T5 working on it. There are not enough people in the game for clear sellers to prohibit you from completing this content.*

Those people selling clears are such a small amount of the total player population that it's a horrific scapegoat to blame them for the lack of progress. Period. This, is a red herring. It would seem relevant but the realistic effect on the community in terms of preventing T5 wins is minuscule to non-existent and is a distraction from the point.

Make your own thread.

[Aana]

You have a clear seller devil's advocate to thank for derailing this. See this is where is started:

Apparently the words 'clear selling' appearing anywhere in a thread are the bat signal and demand complete derailment to show us the evils around us lest we fall prey to the dark sins of the clear RMT ring. Thank you for saving us all from being hypnotized into RMT because 1 post outta 14 pages mentioned those 2 words.

As for the op, the only thing you can do is try to be respectful with the message. Some people cannot accept any form of criticism no matter how it is presented and that is on them. But it is on you to deliver the message in as tasteful and respectfully a manner as is reasonable. After that balls in their court. Don't stress to much about it. We can't prevent everyone from ever being offended. Only try to minimize it through presentation.

[Tiggy]

As for the op, the only thing you can do is try to be respectful with the message. Some people cannot accept any form of criticism no matter how it is presented and that is on them. But it is on you to deliver the message in as tasteful and respectfully a manner as is reasonable. After that balls in their court. Don't stress to much about it. We can't prevent everyone from ever being offended. Only try to minimize it through presentation.

100% agreed. There are some people who either can't take or don't want criticism. One of my friends, the nicest kindest woman I know in this game, tried suggesting to a tank in a dungeon to use flash in his rotation to help keep the adds from running to her on BLM. He just yells out "Don't tell me how to play!" and rage quits on her in the dungeon. No matter how polite you are there are some people that will still turn violent about it. People have to want help themselves or there isn't really anything you can do for them, or as they say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[Gardes]

Really all this pretense at false self-indignation. No one is accusing your of anything, yet you take it so personally, which means you are unable to see thing objectively and from a bigger picture.

Your picture is too big. I'm seeing it everywhere and I'd like to opt out of your ad spam. That's allowed right?

[NyarukoW]

... That's allowed right?

You are under no obligation read anything you don't like on the these forums. But I am not spamming ads. I just advocating for a very simple thing. The bottom line is simple that I encourage people play nice together and help each other. Is that really so wrong? No one is being attacked by that.

[Schizm]

Well after spending some time just scanning the forums and thinking about playing FFXIV, I decided to stop playing. WIth other threads about the trinity system, all I see for my character is logging in and waiting for DF to pop to get seals. When the events pop, I am still finding the same arguement coming up on gear and experienced players.

I am not saying my time was wasted, I really did enjoy the times and exploring a new world, I might just wait til the expansion comes out to decide to come back or not.

[Excalibur:Schizm Gallantry] Peace Out! <(O.o)>

[HakuroDK]

I agree with everything you said but these two points. You assume there are only two kinds of people, and that those with T5 wins all don't have empathy for those without. That is false. There are many people with wins that do want others to get wins and to move to harder content. That has been largely my point in this entire thread. It's not black and white. It's not us or them. It's a large community of complex individuals and it is a disservice to lump them all into a Have or Have Not beaten T5 group, even more of a disservice to then equate traits to those people solely based on their T5 status. The only thing that separates that kind of attitude from things like racism is that we are talking about personality traits and abilities as opposed to the color of ones skin. It's still a prejudice based on something as arbitrary as beating a single boss.

Are there people who have the wins that don't help others? Sure, but the opposite is true to. There are people with wins that do help others.

Are there people who don't have wins that try really hard? Sure, but there are also those who expect carries and get nasty when people refuse.

Human beings are far more complex animals than just black and white answers, and people from both sides of the argument could stand to comprehend that a little better. The primary reason this is so polarized an issue is because some people from the "We need more help in T5" camp seem to refuse to acknowledge that all raiders aren't bad people and that some do help, and because some people on the raider side refuse to acknowledge some people looking for T5 aren't there for hand outs.

More understanding could come from both sides.

One thing that I am sure was missing in context was that I was talking about the two sides of this argument in this thread, not "There are elitists who have cleared T5 and there are lazy people who have not cleared T5".

People who want Coil to be easier so that they can move on to more contemporary content are usually the people from Group A who feel they have been pummeled into the ground and lack the mental fortitude to deal with it. Not always, but usually. The people who want Coil to stay exactly as it is and expect the players to make up the differences with the resources they've got are usually the people from Group B, who were able to overcome those difficulties with T5, either through skill, perseverance, or good fortune. Not always, but usually.

I'm not painting a black-and-white picture that says that no one who has ever cleared T5 will ever want to help. Or, at least, that is not my intention. My intention with my post was to help one side of this very polarizing argument understand the other and vice-versa and clearly I didn't emphasize that fact hard enough in my post that it was all about the very polarizing argument in this very thread and not separating groups of people based on T5 completion status.