Goad

[LionKing]

And Ninja is complex? What makes it complex? Hitting slightly more buttons?

Dragoon rotation can be defined in 3 20-ish second chunks each basically going [HT (combo) Phleb (combo)]. Ninja rotation can be similarly chunked into one 30-second window (beginning with Mutilate) that loops identically every time except for where you use Ninjutsu (and the opener has slightly different skill order).

NIN isn't even that complex bro.

Please re-read my post. I have bold out the IMPORTANT part and go as far as breaking it to a separate part just for you guys, for those who read with the urge to response instead of stop and think for a second.

To this point,I fail to understand why it is so hard for some people to grab a hold of something as very basic of life about mannerism, custom, polite towards other people in community. "You say Hi when you greet someone and say Bye when you depart. You say Thank you when someone do you a favour or something good to you. You say Sorry when you are wronged. You ASK people for what you want, etc..." All these lessons, I am sure ALL OF US had learnt since we were infant. And for those who have had children of their own, I am sure these lessons you won't miss AT ALL to teach for your kids. Then why it is so difficult to have such a simple request granted???

It is not a matter how hard To use Goad, nor when to use Goad, neither how one can estimate TP's bar or how observant one need to be to be able to gauge. All of those things are a child's play to most of us here. However, what we and others have problem here is the attitude of some of you guys when you guys go AWOL on us for not giving you want you want. It is entirely two different matters when you ask politely for what you want and not being provided and when you don't ask, you were not provided what you wanted and went mad on us.

And in raid scenario, we have the same 8 players playing together weeks after weeks after weeks. Since these 8 players have been together for a while, they know each other habits, skills, and to be specific TP consumption on top of upon entering, they agreed on the same strategy, used communication. Most of all, they think for each other and trying to not OVEREXTEND their own resources. They know all of this. That is why in a raid, it is so much easier to observe as because they are already expect what will going to happen.

And in regular Duns, we have 4 different players every single run. They don't know each other, no strategy, no voice communication. They don't know if the rest of the party are old/new, are good players/bad players, nice/rude, etc.... They simple have nothing at all to tell upon entering. Anything can happens in a Dun runs and it is impossible to predict exactly what will happens next to prepare. And the thinking is also different. Whist in raid, the team members think for each other and do their best to not holding others down, in Duns, these 4 players only care about doing their jobs to the best, Tank hold aggro, Heal is healing, and DPS kill mobs as fast and hard as they can.

-DPS don't give a second thought about Tank Rotation, buff/debuff or Healer' map nor how they use their skills, as long as Aggro is being hold, they are not dead, the party not wipe.
-Tank don't have an eyes how DpS rotation goes, nor they bother to look for what CD DPS used, or the healer CD buff/debuff, as long as they are get healed and mobs go down fast.
-And the same for the Healer.

Here, on one hand we have people thinking for each other in raid. On the other hand, we have people thinking for themselves. I will leave the conclusion for you guys.

[Tilgung]

And Ninja is complex? What makes it complex? Hitting slightly more buttons?

Dragoon rotation can be defined in 3 20-ish second chunks each basically going [HT (combo) Phleb (combo)]. Ninja rotation can be similarly chunked into one 30-second window (beginning with Mutilate) that loops identically every time except for where you use Ninjutsu (and the opener has slightly different skill order).

NIN isn't even that complex bro.

WAR is only slightly more complex than 1-2-3 spam PLD. I think a Goad request macro will be very easy to work in.

[LionKing]

t

this guy knows whats up

And I know I can do all that without the need of Goad.
First, no Defiance=> No stacks, Infuriate, Steel Cyclone
Second, his Mp bar is full => No flash has been used. It is right there, cost 28 MP to use.
Third, look at aggro meter, none of the other aggro meter has even a slight fill on it. Meaning he was way overhead of them in aggro wise =>There is no need to keep spamming OP.

Look at this pictures, all I see is the Tank is the DPS more than a tank and he's is trying to DpS more than actually caring for aggro and managing his TP. I don't know the purpose for you to post this picture but all it shows is a Tank doing the DPs job. Not that I am criticise him or anything, it is always a good skill to be able to DPS while still maintaining aggro. However in this case, the Ninja already know what the Tank want, he want to DPS, not to do the Tanking, and Ninja appreciate it. That is why he throw out Goad to help him. => Good

In our case, we have a Tank acting like a Tank and still demand for Goad while expecting Ninja throw out for him without him asking, then go AWOL => Bad/rude.

There are two different cases we have here.

Edit; My bad for not checking the level of the party, even though, a Goad or not, the Tank can still holding aggro just fine like the age before Goad even existed. Nothing changed besides Goad is added. Before, a Tank has no trouble holding aggro. After, they need Goad to do the SAME job. Why?

[SpookyGhost]

First, no Tanking buff is up, like Shield Oath, forget what is called => No stacks, Infuriate, Steel Cyclone

They're level 19.

[LionKing]

I have a scenario I would like people to discuss about in regard Goad was given to the Tank instead. As far as I know, from my experience and strictly speaking in a regular Duns run, a Tank has the most easiest job among all. People can say, a Tank is a made or break of a party, that I concede. However, people could careless about the Tank's rotation, buff/debuff rotation, pop Defensive/Offensive CD or not, as long as the Tank can hold aggro, be able to take a few hits and not giving melee awkward positions. In short, a tank jobs are:

1/ Hold aggro.
2/ Able to take a few hits.
3/ Positioning mobs for melee not to have a hard time.

The tank does not even care about dodging AOE because most of the mechanics in regular Duns will not be able to one-shot the tank or even out the tank in Critical Conditions.Of course, it will make a Healer work harder but hey, Healer's job is to heal the tank and the party.

Now let get to DPS, I will not go into specific jobs as it will take a long time, but in general, a DPS jobs are:

1/ The mobs need to go down hard an fast. Meaning they have to focus on their buff/debuff, DoTs, Popping Self CD, use their Off CD skill, positioning, etc... for maximum DPS output.

People complain about Dragoon not putting their Heavy Thrust/Disembowel up, using their jump. People complaining MNK standing on one place and DPS, in no proper stance. People complain about BLm not using Raging strike, or pop skill to lower their aggro. SMN is complained for not using Fester,Bane, or even have the wrong Egi out, etc... A lot of things, DPS have been called out for not maintaining their proper rotation or simply for pulling low number. I personally don't find any trouble with this.

2/ Watch out for the AoE mechanics. Whilst the same mechanics will not one-shot the tank but sometimes, they do one-shot DPS or put them on the very low health. As the consequences for not be able to dodge AoE, for XYZ reasons, Healer will get mad and Tank will also get mad in the process,laugh at them and calling them as XYZ for such failures.

3/ Watch out for their aggro meter , not to risk themselves anger the tank for pulling aggro of them while making the healer heal them.

When were the last time you heard someone complain about Tank for not using proper rotation or pop XYZ CD again? All I heard from people about Tank are "OMG,X is so squishy", "X, dude, hold aggro" , "X, take this back." Etc...

In short, whilst a tank, all they need to look for is just holding aggro and positioning, the DPS has to keep their rotation in check, ( be it complicated or not, long or short), dodging the mechanics, pop CD, aggro meter. Would it not make more sense for Tank to have more easier time to observe the DPS rotation, skill how many times they use the skills, etc??? And I do have a firm believe most of the complaint for DPS not using proper rotation, not having their buff/debuff up are said from Tank, meaning they do indeed have to time to observe the battle. Healer complaint is most about how they can not dodge XYZ mechanics.

So, for argument sake, let say Goad is given to Tank because of the reasons I listed, would a Tank be able to tell when a DOW Dps run out of TP to use GOAD without them asking? Would they be able to tell exactly what type of rotations does the DPS use? Would they be able to react to " I don't know how many time I have to say to the Tank as XYZ class that to put up Goad, without me asking? Or to observe the DPS rotation to know when to put up GOaD? And how would they react to this?

I want to hear everyone opinion on this.

[Delorean]

t

And I know I can do all that without the need of Goad.
First, no Defiance=> No stacks, Infuriate, Steel Cyclone
Second, his Mp bar is full => No flash has been used. It is right there, cost 28 MP to use.
Third, look at aggro meter, none of the other aggro meter has even a slight fill on it. Meaning he was way overhead of them in aggro wise =>There is no need to keep spamming OP.

1. It's Tam-Tara Deepcroft. I am synced to level 19.
2. Flash does not do damage.
3. Overpower does do damage. More damage = enemies die faster.
4. We never had to stop for me to get TP and I actually wish I'd queued in as MRD since people don't have Jobs at lv 19 and I could have had Invigorate, Raging Strikes and B4B and done even more damage. Unfortunately it was book dungeon =\

[LionKing]

QSomeone had pointed that out to me already and I apologised for let that slip my eyes. However :

Flash does not do damage but it generates aggro.

Yeah like I said, from what I saw in your pictures, you are doing your roles as a DPS, not a Tank which is good. No complain or harsh feeling from me. What I want to say is I could do all that, holding aggro, DPSing at the same time, with or without Goad. And as for stoping for TP goes, the break between the groups are far enough to generate enough TP back for you to hold a good aggro for the next waves. I don't stop for TP recover either. There was one time, I remembered the Healer demanded me to stop for her recover her MP when I tanked as a Warrior in Tamtara HM because I kept going forwards.

In a nutshell, my point is pretty simple, Goad is a good Utility, however, it is not so Godly or necessary or a MUST HAVE for Tank and that they have to be a (inserting words that you would use to describe a rude person), get their head over heel, or go so demanding on Ninja that they have to have it without asking, and that it is Ninja obligation to put up Goad for them without them asking for it.As long as people get that if you want something, A-S-K for it. It is no one obligation or responsibility to know what you want or to observe your performance to know who you are doing and do as you want without you ask first. "Want Goad,A-S-K", simple as that. My DPS sure is not has high as you in the picture, however, there is no need to be a toxic player just for the sake of some extra number.

-You are the Tank. Your top priority is to hold aggro, not DPS. No one has the right to judge you suck,noob,fail at your job when you pull out a low number nor you will be hold responsibility for a fail in the case of the party failed at a DPS check. If you can pull out a decent number while still holding aggro. Good for you, you are a good and skilful tank.
- I am the DPS. My top priority is to take things down swiftly and nicely, not to be anyone TP/MP back up bTtery charge. I will be the one to be blamed if Mobs are not killed fast enough, fail DPS check, and no one has the right to demand me or expect me to put up TP/MP buff without asking for it, nor to be the party MP/TP gauge measurement. If I can go an extra miles for you, good, I am a team player. If not, it is not the end of the world.
-He is the Healer. Your top priority is to Heal, not to DPS. The party failed at DPS check, not your fault. The party died because they so not bother doing mechanics properly, not your fault. It is pretty nice if you have throw out some DoTs/Holy here and there, once in a while whilst still doing your job, we love you.

Anything other than these things are BONUSES and you don' expect people give out Bonuses, even if it is free,to someone who never say he want it.

Do not go around and say things like " How many times do I have to tell Ninja to put up Goad when I am tanking as War", or " It is not the hard jobs to know when a party member run out of TP/MP" or "Use it, why do u save it. It is there,so freaking use it, who cares if it is go wasted" etc,...
Will it kill you to ASK? No.
Will it make you a nice person and make the run a happy run? Yes.
Will it make you a rude one and make the run a disaster run? Yes.
Will the party fail the Duns without it? No
And many more questions I can ask to prove that the Tank or anyone in the party ABSOLUTELY not need it.

Again, DPS is there to make sure things go down fast, not the party TP/MP resources and replenish management auto bot and TP/MP restore and back up.

A story from me if you want to hear it:

I ran Quarn HM with my friends as a WHM. We had a Brd in the party, so upon entering, I nicely asked "Hey Brd, I am going to DPS a bit here and there. Would you please be able to keep check on my MP?". The Brd replied "Sure, no problem". Then for the whole run, he sang MP song for me every time my MP was low WITHOUT ME ASKING ONE WORD. I went berserk with my Holy spamming and we all had great time. There was even a wipe during the run due to the fact, I Holied too hard and accidentally pull aggro off the tank and tank had hard time to take aggro back from me. Even then, all I said : "Sorry hahaha, I was overjoyed", and the party just laughed and at the end of the run, we all said "Thanks for the runs. Good jobs". I had my fun, the tank had his fun, the two DPS also had their fill. We competed the run in 20mins. The Brd was found via DF.

Long story short: It is not killing you nor have any negative effects on you or your life, just by one click or 4 key strokes. Though it does make whether the run is fun or sad, upon your behaviour and attitude. Which one will you choose? A fun one full of laugh or a sad one where people trash talk each other? Your choice.

[Knives]

The real issue here is that the OP for this thread is negative. The thread could have been "NIN, please think about WAR TP when using Goad!" and the message would be out there that NIN should try to be aware of and consider the Tank's TP when going to utilize Goad.

That said...

Goad is not quite like paeon, in that there is a level of decision-making because it is a single-target ability and it has a long cooldown. DPS run low on TP easily during AoE fests, so sometimes it's a good idea to hit them with it (MNKS benefit greatly from it on long boss fights, too) -- I could see many NIN thinking along these lines, as most of them likely came from a DPS background and know the issues better for DPS, whereas WAR seemingly never truly needs a BRD to cast a TP song.

[Delorean]

Yeah like I said, from what I saw in your pictures, you are doing your roles as a DPS, not a Tank which is good.

What is the point in focusing on survival when there is little to no risk of death? If my character was full HA geared, I'd probably do T4 farms in DPS gear.

But I wouldn't have dreamed of doing that while Turn 4 was current. It was difficult and one of the healers we had for our first attempts at it was not very good.

In a nutshell, my point is pretty simple, Goad is a good Utility, however, it is not so Godly or necessary or a MUST HAVE for Tank and that they have to be a (inserting words that you would use to describe a rude person), get their head over heel, or go so demanding on Ninja that they have to have it without asking, and that it is Ninja obligation to put up Goad for them without them asking for it.

no one is demanding anything

a lot of you are just mistaking asking players to take initiative as frothing at the mouth and screaming at you to read their minds and give them goad

But no, I don't feel like that is true. I think that whenever you hit Join, you are obligated to assist your party in the best way that you know how. Do you really think half the people in this thread asking players to take initiative are going to care if they are in a DF party and say "pls goad on huge pulls" only to be told "just tell me when you need it"?

id be slightly annoyed, but it's not really a big problem at all. In fact, it might help that player understand when better to use the ability without having to communicate.

My DPS sure is not has high as you in the picture, however, there is no need to be a toxic player just for the sake of some extra number.

I wonder if anyone in that group thought I was a toxic player. I wonder if all the players who have given me commendations think that I am actually a douche canoe, and not a cool player.

Your top priority is to hold aggro, not DPS. No one has the right to judge you suck,noob,fail at your job when you pull out a low number nor you will be hold responsibility for a fail in the case of the party failed at a DPS check.

and if holding aggro is not even close to a problem then you move down your list of priorities... What is your point?

Do not go around and say things like " How many times do I have to tell Ninja to put up Goad when I am tanking as War", or " It is not the hard jobs to know when a party member run out of TP/MP" or "Use it, why do u save it. It is there,so freaking use it, who cares if it is go wasted" etc,...

ty for assuming that i am a gigantic douchebag

[LionKing]

Um.... I am sorry to inform you this but the "you" i used in there did not mean you at all, in any form, but rather in general, you know, when I am talking you, it could mean I am talking to you but it could also mean I am talking to anyone who read the post, not you in specific. When I preferred you as, you, Delo, it stopped at the very first paragraph and it is already over when started with "In the nut shell" . I apologized if my post offended you in anyway but by "you" in my post, I preferred to general public.

Just like Knvies said in his post, when someone asked you like the OP said "Do I have to say it everytime to Ninja to put up Goad when I am tanking as Warrior?" That sounds like very demanding to me. Recall the post of someone said "In this topic, Ninja just find excuses to be lazy". What do you think this is? But to me, it is pretty obvious that whoever said this EXPECTING Ninja to put up Goad when they don't want to bother to make a macro, click to ask, or type with 4 key strokes. And many many others post in this topic you could found that people are THINKING,EXPECTING,DEMANDING Ninja to put up Goad with no asking like some sort of natural, it has to happen, nothing else does matter. If not, they are labeled as lazy, suck,noob,fail, etc... whatever, you named it. It is pretty obvious what they want from the way the post were written.

Do you come to a restaurant, not as a REGULAR customer, and expect the waiter/waitress to know what you want to eat or drink without ordering or pointing at the menu? No right? What is the difference with "You join in a Dun, via DF, with some people you never meet before, and expect Ninja to put up Goad for you without you telling them? I don't see why you should at all.

P/S: Also did you say anything along those lines that you think will make you a gigantic douchebag??? I did not mention any name, why do you think I prefer to you? If you think you are cool, then you have nothing to be afraid of. I am not assuming anything. Those lines can only coming from rude/unreasonable guys.