Goad

[LionKing]

I have a scenario I would like people to discuss about in regard Goad was given to the Tank instead. As far as I know, from my experience and strictly speaking in a regular Duns run, a Tank has the most easiest job among all. People can say, a Tank is a made or break of a party, that I concede. However, people could careless about the Tank's rotation, buff/debuff rotation, pop Defensive/Offensive CD or not, as long as the Tank can hold aggro, be able to take a few hits and not giving melee awkward positions. In short, a tank jobs are:

1/ Hold aggro.
2/ Able to take a few hits.
3/ Positioning mobs for melee not to have a hard time.

The tank does not even care about dodging AOE because most of the mechanics in regular Duns will not be able to one-shot the tank or even out the tank in Critical Conditions.Of course, it will make a Healer work harder but hey, Healer's job is to heal the tank and the party.

Now let get to DPS, I will not go into specific jobs as it will take a long time, but in general, a DPS jobs are:

1/ The mobs need to go down hard an fast. Meaning they have to focus on their buff/debuff, DoTs, Popping Self CD, use their Off CD skill, positioning, etc... for maximum DPS output.

People complain about Dragoon not putting their Heavy Thrust/Disembowel up, using their jump. People complaining MNK standing on one place and DPS, in no proper stance. People complain about BLm not using Raging strike, or pop skill to lower their aggro. SMN is complained for not using Fester,Bane, or even have the wrong Egi out, etc... A lot of things, DPS have been called out for not maintaining their proper rotation or simply for pulling low number. I personally don't find any trouble with this.

2/ Watch out for the AoE mechanics. Whilst the same mechanics will not one-shot the tank but sometimes, they do one-shot DPS or put them on the very low health. As the consequences for not be able to dodge AoE, for XYZ reasons, Healer will get mad and Tank will also get mad in the process,laugh at them and calling them as XYZ for such failures.

3/ Watch out for their aggro meter , not to risk themselves anger the tank for pulling aggro of them while making the healer heal them.

When were the last time you heard someone complain about Tank for not using proper rotation or pop XYZ CD again? All I heard from people about Tank are "OMG,X is so squishy", "X, dude, hold aggro" , "X, take this back." Etc...

In short, whilst a tank, all they need to look for is just holding aggro and positioning, the DPS has to keep their rotation in check, ( be it complicated or not, long or short), dodging the mechanics, pop CD, aggro meter. Would it not make more sense for Tank to have more easier time to observe the DPS rotation, skill how many times they use the skills, etc??? And I do have a firm believe most of the complaint for DPS not using proper rotation, not having their buff/debuff up are said from Tank, meaning they do indeed have to time to observe the battle. Healer complaint is most about how they can not dodge XYZ mechanics.

So, for argument sake, let say Goad is given to Tank because of the reasons I listed, would a Tank be able to tell when a DOW Dps run out of TP to use GOAD without them asking? Would they be able to tell exactly what type of rotations does the DPS use? Would they be able to react to " I don't know how many time I have to say to the Tank as XYZ class that to put up Goad, without me asking? Or to observe the DPS rotation to know when to put up GOaD? And how would they react to this?

I want to hear everyone opinion on this.

[Knives]

The real issue here is that the OP for this thread is negative. The thread could have been "NIN, please think about WAR TP when using Goad!" and the message would be out there that NIN should try to be aware of and consider the Tank's TP when going to utilize Goad.

That said...

Goad is not quite like paeon, in that there is a level of decision-making because it is a single-target ability and it has a long cooldown. DPS run low on TP easily during AoE fests, so sometimes it's a good idea to hit them with it (MNKS benefit greatly from it on long boss fights, too) -- I could see many NIN thinking along these lines, as most of them likely came from a DPS background and know the issues better for DPS, whereas WAR seemingly never truly needs a BRD to cast a TP song.

[LionKing]

Um.... I am sorry to inform you this but the "you" i used in there did not mean you at all, in any form, but rather in general, you know, when I am talking you, it could mean I am talking to you but it could also mean I am talking to anyone who read the post, not you in specific. When I preferred you as, you, Delo, it stopped at the very first paragraph and it is already over when started with "In the nut shell" . I apologized if my post offended you in anyway but by "you" in my post, I preferred to general public.

Just like Knvies said in his post, when someone asked you like the OP said "Do I have to say it everytime to Ninja to put up Goad when I am tanking as Warrior?" That sounds like very demanding to me. Recall the post of someone said "In this topic, Ninja just find excuses to be lazy". What do you think this is? But to me, it is pretty obvious that whoever said this EXPECTING Ninja to put up Goad when they don't want to bother to make a macro, click to ask, or type with 4 key strokes. And many many others post in this topic you could found that people are THINKING,EXPECTING,DEMANDING Ninja to put up Goad with no asking like some sort of natural, it has to happen, nothing else does matter. If not, they are labeled as lazy, suck,noob,fail, etc... whatever, you named it. It is pretty obvious what they want from the way the post were written.

Do you come to a restaurant, not as a REGULAR customer, and expect the waiter/waitress to know what you want to eat or drink without ordering or pointing at the menu? No right? What is the difference with "You join in a Dun, via DF, with some people you never meet before, and expect Ninja to put up Goad for you without you telling them? I don't see why you should at all.

P/S: Also did you say anything along those lines that you think will make you a gigantic douchebag??? I did not mention any name, why do you think I prefer to you? If you think you are cool, then you have nothing to be afraid of. I am not assuming anything. Those lines can only coming from rude/unreasonable guys.

[Delorean]

oh well anyone who acts like that probably gets kicked from their party anyway

[LionKing]

The problem is those individuals are coming from Tank, so sometimes it is so hard to get them kicked. On the side notes, is there anything else you have problems with me after my post cleared things up? If still you have, I will hear it.

[Delorean]

in my experience a tank like that will usually leave on their own if people tell them they are being a jerk

[LionKing]

And they rage in the forum later. And that is where we need to defend ourselves from those unreasonable demanding. Though, I would hate people like that for causing trouble to the rest of the party for their selfish desire, demands.

[SpookyGhost]

Right, so, lets break it down a bit.

Goad is an ability that regens TP at a higher tick than Army's Paeon does. This is incredible utility! A really great skill to have at your disposal and can be a huge help in speedruns and long encounters. I'm actually curious about what the DPS of 2x NIN 2x BLM would be like vs 1x NIN 1x MNK 1x BRD 1x BLM. You could even go 6 NINs 1 WHM/SCH 1 WAR/PLD and have 100% uptime on Trick Attack with Goad for every NIN! Basically, NIN's Goad opens up a lot of possibilities.

Now, while it is great utility it isn't necessary utility (however I would like to note that a T8 with no BRD or NIN quickly becomes problematic). As has been said many times, we have gone all this time without Goad and have been fine so while it is helpful, it is not a necessity. It does add something unique to speedruns that no other job has, and that's TP regeneration with no damage loss. Typically, for let's say the first pull of Brayflox HM, a BRD will play Foes to aid the Healer in their Holy Spam, which means the WAR has to be mindful of his/her TP - this becomes a non-issue with Goad applied at the start, as they will have a good chunk more TP for the boss and the pull thereafter. More Overpower means things die quicker, which means quicker runs. Same can be said of BRD's AOE and DRG's AOE.

Now that we've established when Goad is good in 4man dungeons, lets establish where it starts to lose it's charm. The first instance would be single trash pulls where no AOE is being used outside of the two initial Overpowers. When this is happening, Goad loses a significant amount of use as the TP regenerated becomes insignificant (especially if the WAR or w/e ends up at 1000 TP after everything is dead and Goad is still ticking). On top of this, no boss fight in a one-trash-pack-at-a-time dungeon run would benefit from Goad as at no point should you bottom out on TP. So, keeping in mind that these two things are the only uses of TP in the dungeon, Goad becomes significantly less effective. You CAN give someone Goad and it is possible you will save them some TP, but it is not nearly as effective as a speed run of said dungeon with Goad.

Now, let's talk about 8 man content. Primals are at the forefront and the most accessible to pretty much everyone at 50, at least the HM versions. We're going to go ahead and group the HM and EX versions together as this applies to both of them - TP song is, at no point, needed. The same goes for Goad. The only Primal where Goad could possibly help is Ramuh EX, where there is absolutely 0 downtime similar to Turn 8 - however, not only does Ramuh die quite a bit quicker, you also have the possibility of being chained to someone and naturally restoring your TP by being unable to press buttons OR you are cursed and also can not press buttons until you are out of the curse. So, all in all, Goad doesn't have much use in Primals which means next on the list is Coil1.

T1 - Goad is never needed. At any point.
T2 - There is downtime going from one node to the next, if you are using the enrage method everyone will be at 100% TP and never need Goad or TP Song while burning the boss down.
T3 - Goad for Sprint + Overpower??? New T3 meta?????
T4 - Actually has a use here! However I'd like to point out something very important - it is EXTREMELY obvious when Goad has a use here. If you genuinely need someone to tell you they need Goad in this turn, you are playing Ninja with your eyes closed.
T5 - A lot of downtime, no TP song needed, no Goad needed. If you absolutely must use it, give it to the PLD on the last phase as Shield Bash is costly.

So, Coil1 has one very specific use for Goad and a macro is completely unnecessary.

In SCoB, I would say a macro would be helpful. However, I really don't think that people should be doing Coil2 without voice communication unless they are mute or deaf (in which case, macros become massively more important). This also applies to FCoB.

I think that having a Goad macro is fine, but it is not a necessity. Rarely will you need to use Goad, and if you do it will be really, really obvious. It is unfortunate that you can't see your party's TP in the game currently, as it would stop any discussion we're currently having completely - but, for now, just keep your eyes open. Even if everyone having a Goad macro were a good idea, everyone won't - more than half the players probably don't even read these forums. So just try to work on being more aware of the situation you're in and if Goad seems appropriate, use it.

[Mimiru_S]

SE should just remove Goad, so people can start complaining about something else.