Goad

[Fayto]

@ Fayto: I am sorry for me learning how to play the game by sheer mistakes I made and by ACTUALLY playing the game and define my play style rather than look up on some boring emptiness wall of text. Sorry for not being a bookworm but more like a type of get up and get your hand dirty.

It isn't even something you need to look up. It is common, or should be, common knowledge. Again, ALL AoEs cost roughly the same TP. So if YOUR AoE cost a lot, changes are so does other Jobs(they do).

Maybe next time, when I die, I should blame the Paladin for not throwing out a heal when my HP get low

Stop right there, don't use strawmans. Paladins are tanks, not healers. They are not responsible for the recovery of your health. Also Cure is a cross-class ability, Goad is not.
Cover on the other hand is a valid argument. Although, the tank should be skilled enough to know when to use it.

[Asakura93]

Maybe next time, when I die, I should blame the Paladin for not throwing out a heal when my HP get low or a Cover or a Stoneskin for that matter without asking. I am sorry but you, Pal has to have raid awareness to other party members' s HP as well as how well they are performing. You know RAID AWARENESS is important. Or you know Paladin, you have HEAL, STONESKIN, COVER in your disposal, so you should use them WITHOUT being asked, you know? Or you could look up to see how much dams we, Dps, will take when we get hit, so you can heal pre-attempts without us asking??? Oh and one other things, there is no excuse for you not to know our HP when it is right there, unlike your TP, somewhere hidden in the background and we CAN NOT see it.

Why are you so mad about this thing? You should know that Paladin can't heal enough to even think about cross-classing Cure.

Also: Any good Paladin will be using Stoneskin during Raid anyway on themselves, party members or the other Tank when they got the time and possibility to do so and help out.

Is it really so hard to throw Goad at the beginning of a large pull or during SRs?

[SpookyGhost]

@SookyGhost, we are here more talking about a GENERAL pull Duns run, not a SR. Type. SR has their own methods and way to deal with, often than most is different with how a NORMAL run would be conducted.

A normal pull dungeon run would never require Goad.

There are only 2 scenarios where Goad is needed:

1.) A speedrun where TP based AOEs are being used (WAR/DRG/MNK/BRD) and
2.) Various reasons in a raid scenario.

Other than those 2, Goad isn't needed. If you feel the need to use Goad in a non-SR dungeon run, use it before the boss is pulled... and that's pretty much it.

[Delorean]

If a WAR is repeatedly using OP and not utilizing Flash and SC then no.

You can only use Flash 3 times which does less enmity than OP and should honestly only be used if you're at a weird angle and need to create breathing room to find a better one to OP spam at. You also need 5 Wrath to be able to use SC

When I OP spam I hit OP two or three times before I hit maim, pop cds and get back to it until depletion.

Sometimes I will do a SC if my current wrath an enmity permits me the breathing room to generate 3-4 wrath - 2 off a combo, 1-2 off of Vengeance/Berserk

Honestly Goad is not even an amazing ability. It is useful - a respite. Nothing more. It is not going to matter much if you drop it on someone clearly attempting to make a big pull rather than in the middle of a pull. Warriors do a lot of DMG with OP during Unchained/Berserk (and whatever else they have running)

But hey, it's cool. If you don't want to help your party, that's fine. I will probably make a macro to ask for Goad when I want it - so again, I'm not arguing someone shouldn't ask for utility when they need it.

I just don't understand the hostile attitude towards being asked to take initiative. If you feel like you're going to waste it because you can't tell when a tank is going to be doing a big pull, then by all means, leave it up to them to ask for it.

I just thought that it was a pretty simple task to accomplish. =\

[Leonus]

Tanks could ask, it makes it easier for the dps to know.

However, a dps should be able to judge at times depending on the number of mobs pulled.

Either way, raid awareness an communication are key.

[XgungraveX]

as person who mains a war, i do it when i see them pull big there tp goes fast lol

[Snugglebutt]

Until SE fixes the UI and puts TP bars in it (they have no valid excuse not to do so since you could just replace MP with TP for classes that use it and therefore not create larger UI which is one of the excuses been used), until then if you want Goad then you ask for it. The Ninja rotation is quite complex and has fairly high chance of messing up mudra's when not concentrating on top of being close combat so doesn't have the same luxury as bards and other ranged types...so if you want TP ask for it.

You could make a macro that can take half a second to click which says "Need TP" or something instead of dumping everything on the shoulders of other classes because you can't be bothered to click such a macro. Tanking classes according to most of my friends is one of the easier jobs in game so ask for TP as part of your job instead of forcing mine to be additionally being keeping track of your skill usage. If want me to know when you need it then SE can fix this very easily by adding TP bars to the party UI but until then ask for it or you wont get it.

If do not like that then too bad, cry me a river...but I have no intention of keeping track and counting how many times you use your skills when Ninjas already have a crap load more to keep track of than tanks do and it only takes you maybe half a second to click a macro which asks for TP. Seems to me everyone telling Ninjas to count the skill usage of other TP classes and telling Ninjas to add this to the Ninjas already quite tricky job are the ones being lazy not the Ninjas who saying that you should have the courtesy to ask for it when you want it.

[SeraviEdalborez]

The Ninja rotation is quite complex and has fairly high chance of messing up mudra's when not concentrating on top of being close combat so doesn't have the same luxury as bards and other ranged types...so if you want TP ask for it.

Boo hoo. Rotation is extremely simple. Overcomplicate it more.

[LionKing]

Finally, I can vent myself for more:

@Fayto: I am sorry for being one of the many dumb people for not realising that all TP AoE cost would be roughly the same and that if you TP skill cost that much, the other class will be the same until I levelled my second class..Sorry for being stupid and not as smart and genius and brilliant as you are. I am sorry for used to think that the AOE skills of all the class would be paid by the cost of MP (my first class was SMN). I am sorry for used to think that all TP 's good for is for sprinting. I am sorry for used to think TP would increases as you lv up like MP. I am sorry for letting so many COMMON KNOWLEDGE/sense slip by. I am sorry for my ignorance. Paladin is a tanker, not a healer, you are ABSOLUTELY right. and Ninja is a DPSers, not your personal TP MONITORING ANALYSING, BACK UP AND RESTORE-ers, Automatic Operating.

@Asuka: Quote from myself "The one that really tick me off the most is people who required others to WORK HARDER for their sakes call them being lazy while they don't realise they are the one who is lazy". You asked me was it hard to Goad at the start ? I ask you was it really challenge to ask you to make a macro, click it and ask for TP when you need it? You are the one who made a fuss over the whole deal of Ninja not Goad you WITHOUT you asking. You said Paladin can not heal well? Hey it is still a Heal nevertheless. So how about Goad? It is not effective compared to LEARN TO MANAGE YOUR TP in the first place.

Before Goad, the world was NEVER involved around Goad, nor Goad is an ABSOLUTE need for any SR. Just because Goad is add as an bonus, it should be a COMPULSORY for a SR nowadays. And SR with a melee in a party? Really?

Point still stand: If u want something, A-S-K for it. You don't expect people to serve you food because of your stomach making a funny sound, you ASK for the food. You don't expect people to serve you drink, just because of your voice is funny due to hydration, you ASK for drink. Ninja is not entitled to you to serve you their Goad with NO asking. You are not ENTITLED to anyone to have them doing your way, know what you want WITH NO ASKING...

@To the guy above me:

Tank: Boo hooo. I am sorry, making a macro, and click it when I need it seems so much of a trouble or too much of a effort. Why don't you just read my thought and give me what I want instead, observe my actions, count my skill, knows about my TP as I am performing. Save me a lot of trouble there !!
Ninja/Me: Never !! I don't have the ability to read mind nor I give a damn about how is your TP. All I care is you keep aggro and if u want TP replenish, A-S-K.

Here is how I will deal with those types self-entitlement tank:

1/ First encounter:
Tank: Dude!! Where is your Goad??? You saw me pulling massive pulls and used OP like crazy. You should know I would run out of Tp and in need of your goad without me telling you.
Ninja/Me: I am sorry, it is on CD. I used it earlier when I soloed with my Chocobo. You know, seeing him using his kick like 10 times in a row and since I could not see his TP to tell exactly how much TP bar he has left. So I just used it on him, you know, for safety reasons

2/Second encounter:
Tank: Dude!! Your Goad should be Off CD by now and you would have guessed I would run out of TP real quick with all that pulls and spamming.
Ninja/me: Oh I am sorry, but I did use it. You sure you did not miss it? As I see you were pretty occupied with all the pulls and spamming while dodging the AOE and pop CD, also positioning mobs while keeping yourself not dying. Men, with all that things on the plate, I am pretty sure you would miss my used Goad but sorry, it is on CD now. Though I will use it again in the Duns, so please make sure you look for it. Please look forward to it.

3/Third Encounter:
Tank: Dude!! I looked, looked, and looked again and still saw your Goad not be used even once. I am pretty sure you never use it so far. With 100% positively certainty.
Ninja/me: Oh I am sorry. I was so occupied with all of my rotation, keeping buff/debuff up, while keeping myself in a safe distance, so I don't die or take dams to cause more work to our healer, while still maintaining my maximum output. I must have missed your Tp count, observation, sorry about that. What was it you asked again? Ah Goad, here. (Click on any random party member besides Tank).
Tank:....
Ninja/me: Oh I am sorry. I am so tired after all that and it seems it affects my skill of clicking. I give to the wrong guy and it is now on CD. Stupid me and I am sorry.

Too bad, I am sorry but no Goad for you, Tank!!!

@ the guy below me:

Compare "Internal Release", a self-buff, to "Goad", an utility, it is a fairly unfair comparison. On one hand, you will be marked as bad DPS for not poping any of your CD when able to, resulting your DPS is low. On the other hand, Goad is only used for TP buff, as an utility, to a very reasonable people, they won't mark you for anything whether you use Goad or not.

It is not about how hard or easy to use the Goad, but I more prefer to people calling Ninja out for not using them, then requested to know that their TP will run dry while there is no definite way to keep track of TP correctly is unfair and rather stupid. Whom should you use Goad on, when you should use it? They EXPECTED NINJA to know all of this without telling them a SINGLE WORD.

"You don't sit with Internal Release ready to go the entire dungeon because "There was never a situation where we would die if I didn't have extra crit. Use your skills, and use them on your own without having to be asked." Quote from your post. Based on your logic, Benediction should be used as well on a random player on a random time just because "There was never a situation where we would die if XyZ.." . Or you know "Holmgang" when you are full health, just because "There was never a situation where we would die if etc..."... And then afterward, when a actual situation raises, required you to use those skills, will you like "Oh shit, they are on CD"?

@Senfei:

My point of giving out the comparison between Holmgang, Benediction, and Goad is not because they are "Oh Shit" buttons in comparison with Goad, a normal utility. Strictly speaking in a Regular duns run, given everyone doing their job right, Tank is tanking, Healer is healing, Dps is Dpsing hard and fast, there will be HARDLY ever had a moment to resolve to these "Oh Shit" button. Therefore, to counter your argument, "You don't sit with Internal Release ready to go the entire Dungeon because "There was never a situation where we would die if..." ". In summary, the argument of just because there was never a situation of ZYX, it is ok to let your skill go WASTED is laughable.

We'll just agree to disagree then. Like I said, it only takes me half a second to make the connection between "I should AOE in this situation" and "Oh hey everyone else is AOEing too".

If this too massive a hurdle for some people, so be it.

We are not arguing about how long would it take you to set up the macro or how challenge for one to use it, it is not rocket science to figure out when one is in need of the TP, any good player out there can safely gauge that with little to no trouble. However, what I and people have been arguing so far is the attitude of people think they are ENTITLED for Goad while FORCING Ninja or Bard to know how they are doing with their own TP by FORCING them to work EXTRA HARDER, observing the tank or whoever, spamming their skill with no care in the world just because they have a Ninja/Brd in a party.

Like I said, in many many previous post, in the entire runs of my career as a Warrior Tank, strictly speaking in normal Duns run,whether it is SR or normal, I HARDLY EVER ask for TP, like EVER, unless things go EXCESSIVELY wrong. So I don't know why other tanks should yell or criticise, or be a jerk over Ninja/Brd to cover for their incompetent in managing their TP for a long run. Unless you are OVEREXTEND yourself, you should NEVER EVER seeing yourself of TP Starve, the same go for Healer, unless you are using BIG CURE, one should NEVER EVER seeing him/her out of MP to the point can not heal.

If able to help, we don;t really want to go into a massive hurdle like it is now but just because there are people out there feel like they are so IMPORTANT, ENTITLE that they should have what they want WITHOUT open up or click a simple click, being so criticise for that, we would not finding ourselves to defend our cause.

And here is one of the situation for those who think it is OK to let Goad WASTED.

A Ninja see a tank spamming OP. "Oh hey, he is spamming OP, he must have his Tp ran out soon", the Ninja thinks. "Here have a Goad, mate, and you are welcomed" and the Tank did not ask for anything. Then one way or the other, the tank dies. (for XYZ reasons), and he get raised. Now he need TP to spamming OP to get the aggro back but thanks to weakness, he does not have enough TP to do such thing. "Goad, Goad, Goad" the tank yells. "Too bad, dude, it is on CD now because I used it earlier", the Ninja reply. And because of failure of taking the aggro back from the tank and the unnecessary use of Goad from the Ninja earlier, the party then proceed to wipe. HAPPY ENDING!!!

P/S: Daily limitation post is suck.. .This post is getting too long. I will break it as soon as I get my chance. Sorry for any inconvenience.

[Senfei]

Why is the guy above me freaking out. This isn't hard. I have goad setup as a macro with <tt> assigned so it automatically hits the tank. I have a seperate button setup to use on the other dps if the situation calls for that instead. If I am AOEing, chances are everyone else is too. So I goad someone. Yes, there is a chance my goad may be wasted, who cares. You don't sit with Internal Release ready to go the entire dungeon because "There was never a situation where we would die if I didn't have extra crit".

Use your skills, and use them on your own without having to be asked.